Belfast - guidance on a first time BRC DIY install

Post Reply
Message
Author
keeperlit
New member
Posts: 11
Joined: Thu May 05, 2022 10:58 am

Belfast - guidance on a first time BRC DIY install

#1 Post by keeperlit »

Hi all, I've been dying to do an autogas conversion for years, finally doing it on my 2002 MG ZS V6. Using a second hand BRC kit, but would like help to bounce ideas off and someone to check out my work and make sure it's safe.

Keith

LPGC
Installer
Posts: 4690
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:01 pm
Location: Yorkshire
Contact:

Re: Belfast - guidance on a first time BRC DIY install

#2 Post by LPGC »

What vehicle was the LPG system removed from?

What BRC parts do you have (including model of ECU)?
Full time LPG installer
Servicing / Diagnostics / Repairs to all systems / DIY conversion kits supplied with thorough tech support
Mid Yorkshire
2 miles A1, 8 miles M62,
http://www.Lpgc.co.uk
Twitter https://twitter.com/AutogasSimon
07816237240

keeperlit
New member
Posts: 11
Joined: Thu May 05, 2022 10:58 am

Re: Belfast - guidance on a first time BRC DIY install

#3 Post by keeperlit »

So far I've got:

- Atrama 55l 0 degree tank with Tomasetto AT02 valve
- BRC Sequent 56, taken from a BMW straight 6 (https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/185432060913)
- BRC Genius Max reducer
- MTM rail with 6 injectors

Looks like to complete I need:
- BRC changeover switch
- High pressure pipe (I have a flexi for a different AT09 reducer but guessing copper would be a better idea?)
- tank level sender (the one I got on the AT02 didn't survive postage)
- injector nozzles (still glued to the BMW manifold)
- injector tubing
- programming cable
- software

LPGC
Installer
Posts: 4690
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:01 pm
Location: Yorkshire
Contact:

Re: Belfast - guidance on a first time BRC DIY install

#4 Post by LPGC »

Looks like you've got a fair idea about the plumbing etc.

To calibrate it you may also need the BRC calibration time pressure sensor if there is no map sensor with the Seq56 system.
Full time LPG installer
Servicing / Diagnostics / Repairs to all systems / DIY conversion kits supplied with thorough tech support
Mid Yorkshire
2 miles A1, 8 miles M62,
http://www.Lpgc.co.uk
Twitter https://twitter.com/AutogasSimon
07816237240

keeperlit
New member
Posts: 11
Joined: Thu May 05, 2022 10:58 am

Re: Belfast - guidance on a first time BRC DIY install

#5 Post by keeperlit »

LPGC wrote: Mon May 23, 2022 2:20 pm Looks like you've got a fair idea about the plumbing etc.

To calibrate it you may also need the BRC calibration time pressure sensor if there is no map sensor with the Seq56 system.
Great point, I have no idea about how that works. But I do have MAP sensor in the pile of BRC kit. :-)

My car has an internal wheel well and I only have an external tank, so looking at cutting a hole so the valve is outside and sealing around it. Would love some guidance around that.

LPGC
Installer
Posts: 4690
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:01 pm
Location: Yorkshire
Contact:

Re: Belfast - guidance on a first time BRC DIY install

#6 Post by LPGC »

Normally if fitting a zero degree tank in a spare wheel well (assuming possible... there has to be enough space around the outside of the wheel well for the valve) the valve is fitted to the tank after the tank is in the well. Put the tank in, mark up where the 'boss' for the valve needs to go through the side of the spare wheel well, remove the tank, make an 80mm hole in the correct position through the side of the well, put the tank in again (not necessarily bolted in at this point) and get the boss through the side of the well, fit the valve to the tank from the outside. If the valve is fitted first the hole will need to be bigger. Seal around the hole.
Full time LPG installer
Servicing / Diagnostics / Repairs to all systems / DIY conversion kits supplied with thorough tech support
Mid Yorkshire
2 miles A1, 8 miles M62,
http://www.Lpgc.co.uk
Twitter https://twitter.com/AutogasSimon
07816237240

Brian_H
Intermediate Member
Posts: 2579
Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2012 12:21 pm
Location: Milton Keynes

Re: Belfast - guidance on a first time BRC DIY install

#7 Post by Brian_H »

On the plus side, that means all your plumbing is on the outside of the car, so no need for the vent tubes. You also want an underlay for the tank where its sat on the bottom of the wheel well.

keeperlit
New member
Posts: 11
Joined: Thu May 05, 2022 10:58 am

Re: Belfast - guidance on a first time BRC DIY install

#8 Post by keeperlit »

Thanks for the tank advice.

My car has loads of space around the wheel well on one side (opposite side to the exhaust) thankfully, should be able to run the existing polypipe and cables up to the engine bay beside the existing fuel and brake lines as they're on that side too.

Ah, the need for sealing and underlay might explain why the tank came covered in a layer of expanding foam...

Brian_H
Intermediate Member
Posts: 2579
Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2012 12:21 pm
Location: Milton Keynes

Re: Belfast - guidance on a first time BRC DIY install

#9 Post by Brian_H »

I've used tiger seal when I put the kit on the focus (same sort of thing, 0 degree tank so tank was inside, but valve through a hole cut into the side of wheel well - obviously pick somewhere that you have space on the outside for the valve to stick out of, Mine had to go on the side nearest the road wheel as no space on the rear to work with, bear in mind front mounting isn't ideal as the direction of travel would probabbly mean that contents would be at the rear when getting low, possibly resulting in earlier switching back to petrol when the tank is running low).

underlay something like this as an example
https://lpgautosupplies.co.uk/shop/lpg- ... idal-tank/

I'd think you could use anything that can stand the weight ontop of it, The factory fit I had with an internal tank had what looked like a rubber sheet (think inner tube material) between the boot floor and the tank. Its to prevent contact between the car and tank where it could cause rubbing/corrosion as description on that page says.

As for the expaning foam - who knows what someone did before, it may have not been intentional (I've seen the results of someone managing to run over a couple of cans of that stuff with a forklift when they fell off it, it goes everywhere! Could be that someone had a can of it in the boot and it discharged rather than being an intentional thing, though you never know)

LPGC
Installer
Posts: 4690
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:01 pm
Location: Yorkshire
Contact:

Re: Belfast - guidance on a first time BRC DIY install

#10 Post by LPGC »

When fitting a 0degree tank internally you need to seal around the valve area because if you don't there's the chance gas could enter the vehicle if the tank pressure relief valve opens... or in any case you wouldn't want the potential for water or exhaust gas to get in through a gap.

I don't see it as always being necessary to fit anything (insulation etc) between tanks and a wheel well floor, perhaps the main reason for fitting mats between tanks and the well floor is to prevent rattling between the tank and the floor. Zero degree tanks are designed to be fitted underslung external, so most 0deg tanks (and likely all 0deg tanks at one time) only have/had fixing points at the top, which meant that fitting a 0deg tank internally (as opposed to 30degree tank internally) meant having to make brackets to secure the tank and such brackets would be less likely to keep the tank tight against the floor than a 30deg tank which is bolted through the floor. When fitting tanks we try to fit the biggest (tallest) that will fit to give best capacity, the thickness of mats (some mats were up to 5mm thick) could hinder fitting the best capacity tank.

I used to get through a lot of steel bar fabricating elaborate welded brackets to hold 0degree tanks in spare wheel wells. Size for size 0 Degree tanks hold a bit more gas than 30degree tanks because the centre of the 'donut' also contains gas on 0deg tanks.

Imagine you've fitted a tank in a car, all plumbing connected, take it out to calibrate the LPG system but find the tank rattles against the floor... I haven't done it for many years but I have used fire resistant expanding foam to prevent a tank rattle in this kind of situation just a handful of times in the past. Stuff like Tiger Seal is great for sealing the (small, maybe a few mm) gap between a 0degree tank valve boss and the 80mm hole in the side of a wheel well it fits through. Bathroom type filling stuff / silicone sealant won't last long term on a car.

What you probably shouldn't do is try to fit a 0degree tank with it's valve already fitted because that would mean having to make a much wider and less neat hole through the side of the wheel well which becomes effectively exponentially more difficult to seal the wider the hole is away from the boss... The boss protrudes from the tank so the further away from the boss the side of the hole gets means there's a hole with a big void behind it as the tank curves away from the hole. As opposed to just filling (say) a 2mm gap between tank protrusion and 80mm hole.
Full time LPG installer
Servicing / Diagnostics / Repairs to all systems / DIY conversion kits supplied with thorough tech support
Mid Yorkshire
2 miles A1, 8 miles M62,
http://www.Lpgc.co.uk
Twitter https://twitter.com/AutogasSimon
07816237240

keeperlit
New member
Posts: 11
Joined: Thu May 05, 2022 10:58 am

Re: Belfast - guidance on a first time BRC DIY install

#11 Post by keeperlit »

LPGC wrote: Mon May 23, 2022 2:20 pm
To calibrate it you may also need the BRC calibration time pressure sensor if there is no map sensor with the Seq56 system.
The kit just arrived and what I thought was a MAP sensor is actually just an injector rail pressure sensor.

The BRC calibration sensor looks quite expensive, and I do have a spare ESGI P1-MAP sensor if that might work here? Unlikely I guess.

I also need an to find a changeover switch which has been snipped off during removal. And some nozzles and bits of pipe etc....

LPGC
Installer
Posts: 4690
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:01 pm
Location: Yorkshire
Contact:

Re: Belfast - guidance on a first time BRC DIY install

#12 Post by LPGC »

Yes the Seq56 system doesn't usually have a runtime map sensor.

The ESGI sensor won't work with Seq56.

Worth considering that a switch, map sensor, tank level sensor and (more expensive than average system) interface cable for the Seq56 system will add up to a fair fraction of the cost of new other make electronics that come complete with loom, map sensor, switch and tank level sensor. You would still need an interface cable but cables for most systems are a bit cheaper than cables for the Seq56. If you did use different electronics you'd need to cut the injector connectors off the BRC loom to wire them to the new electronics loom.

The single rail of 6 injectors isn't ideal for the V6 ZS engine, normally you'd want 2 rails of 3 injectors or 6 singular injectors.
Full time LPG installer
Servicing / Diagnostics / Repairs to all systems / DIY conversion kits supplied with thorough tech support
Mid Yorkshire
2 miles A1, 8 miles M62,
http://www.Lpgc.co.uk
Twitter https://twitter.com/AutogasSimon
07816237240

keeperlit
New member
Posts: 11
Joined: Thu May 05, 2022 10:58 am

Re: Belfast - guidance on a first time BRC DIY install

#13 Post by keeperlit »

Turns out my cheap Vagcom cable works with the BRC software and sequent ECU by using the +12v, ground and K-Line pins on the Vagcom OBD adapter connected to the 3 diagnostic pins on the sequent ECU, that saved a few quid on an adapter!

keeperlit
New member
Posts: 11
Joined: Thu May 05, 2022 10:58 am

Re: Belfast - guidance on a first time BRC DIY install

#14 Post by keeperlit »

Found a blown fuse (actuator supply 15A - wrong fuse 5A had been used) and now all injectors relays and coils seem to be working when doing the BRC actuators test.

Just need a Changeover switch, MAP sensor, some injector piping, nozzles and injector harnesses. Found loads of PDFs online which helped with the wiring a lot.

I think I'll change all the filters at the same time.

The previous install (on a BMW 3.0 6cyl) doesn't seem to have been connected up to o2 sensors and TPS, not sure if I should make the effort and do that?

keeperlit
New member
Posts: 11
Joined: Thu May 05, 2022 10:58 am

Re: Belfast - guidance on a first time BRC DIY install

#15 Post by keeperlit »

Well, that's the Sequent 56 up and running now, after sorting a minor leak at the reducer and a self-calibration using the BRC software and the VAGCOM cable.

Took me most of July to install it between other family commitments, just in time for the petrol price to drop! The station closest to me in 69.9p / litre though which does seem very good to others.

I managed to squeeze in the 53L 0 degree tank quite easily with only a small modification to the wheel well. I ended up not lining the wheel well as there was factory stonechip which was still quite soft. I used bitumen roof repair strips to seal up the hole around the tank boss which worked quite well. The existing poly pipe and wiring was easy enough to route under the car alongside the brake and fuel lines (when it was on a lift though), but I found the injectors and wiring the bulk of the work. The manifolds were aluminium thankfully, I can see how hard it would be to mess up a plastic manifold.

On my system, I connected up both o2 sensors, the TPS, RPM and soldered the injector harness into place once I figured out which was +ve and -ve. Took my time to heatshrink, tape and tidy the wiring. I included a new MAP (calibration) sensor and managed to mount the switch on a dashboard blank. I also brought through the diagnostic serial (K-line) wire and planning to fit a 2nd OBD2 connector, just for the LPG system into pin7 so I can use the VAGCOM cable with a laptop inside the car.

Brian_H
Intermediate Member
Posts: 2579
Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2012 12:21 pm
Location: Milton Keynes

Re: Belfast - guidance on a first time BRC DIY install

#16 Post by Brian_H »

69.9p is doing well - the cheapest I've seen over here for a long time has been 72.9 and some places asking as much as 127.9 a litre

keeperlit
New member
Posts: 11
Joined: Thu May 05, 2022 10:58 am

Re: Belfast - guidance on a first time BRC DIY install

#17 Post by keeperlit »

It does seem strange LPG in Northern Ireland is so cheap, I'm not sure why.

Even down south (across the border in Ireland) it's usually around a euro per litre, which still looks cheaper compared to England.

Post Reply