Conversion of a Volvo V70 (P80) 1999

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CNG
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Re: Conversion of a Volvo V70 (P80) 1999

#81 Post by CNG »

Thanks LGCC. Looked long and hard at the Stag. Minded to it wanting :

STAG TAP-03/1
has been designed for engines with an inductive crankshaft position sensor and up to 2 electronic camshaft position sensors.


I got to speak to Dai about this and like me he wasn't sure if it'd run without '2 electronic camshaft position sensors.' He has experience with the Europegas EG Dynamic only.

This whole TAP issue has given me weeks of pain. This forced me to put the Necam on there, and it's taking me weeks to get all the alternative parts together to use an AEB510N programmable TAP. Bill now near £380 and near two months sorting the TAP alone, it wasn't even the money. Going thru' AEB's contradictory info I still don't know if it'll work. This being a Denso engine, AEB's documentation seems to say they don't make a TAP for the Bosch variant of this engine from a year earlier. But surely a crank-sensor is a crank-sensor, Bosch or Denso?

Can you tell I'm not happy?

The nearest I can find to my 1999 Denso set-up is AEB's drawing for an S60. It's my understanding, S60 or Denso V70, B5244S they're set-up much the same. I'm a bit worried, money aside it's the time spent on this. If I'm wrong I'll have to take it all off again. Thus, back to Necam.

Why £380 you ask?
AEB 510N TAP (including delivery from Italy ) = £110
AEB 001N Data lead (including delivery) = £70
AEB011N Firmware from Tinley ( I took their the last one?)=£130
AEB410F Lead (including delivery from Netheralnds) = £70

Wheras the EG is about £60-70. And i still don't know if this AEB stuff is correct, and it's still not all here yet. ... ouch.

On order I still don't have the complete set-up. Going in blind, I had no alternative. Having taken all the multipoint stuff off for shortage of info, this to get the Necam on, I'm now back in again to reverse my work. It's not even the money, it's the hassle. At present, I'm aiming for this....
AEB510N TAP Install.png
AEB510N TAP Install.png (321.71 KiB) Viewed 2902 times
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AEB510N TAP Wiring.png
AEB510N TAP Wiring.png (73.96 KiB) Viewed 2902 times
Last edited by CNG on Wed Jul 28, 2021 10:51 am, edited 3 times in total.

CNG
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Re: Conversion of a Volvo V70 (P80) 1999

#82 Post by CNG »

Rant/

AEB don't fill me with confidence, the one thing I do know for sure, the AEB510N with the pricey firmware kit installing the correct variant, it'll work without cams with an inductive crank.

As the drawing we program Software AEB510N-08

Limited options and info, I'm still not sure how I've managed to make a meal of something as straight forward, but I have.

\Rant.

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Re: Conversion of a Volvo V70 (P80) 1999

#83 Post by CNG »

Simon, what's your best guess for a start-point for advance with a TAP? I can go up to 15°. My experience, mad as it seems, my Land-rover has 6° petrol at idle but likes 22° on gas.

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Re: Conversion of a Volvo V70 (P80) 1999

#84 Post by LPGC »

Sorry the late reply, I was away on holiday last week, got back on Saturday and have only just seen recent posts on this thread.

I have no experience of setting up ignition timing on CNG.. Bit late and a maybe a bit ironic to suggest this now but it might have been a good idea to use a timing strobe to find static advance on CNG at idle when the Necam system was running, compare that to timing on petrol and set the timing advance processor to advance timing by that difference, although that would only give you idle rpm no load timing. In the past I've read on the net about advance curves on CNG versus petrol but most of the info seems to be for big V8's, still it might give you an idea, other than that you might have to first guestimate timing then adjust it seat of the pants style... I'd start off by erring on the side of timing too retarded and advance it no further than seemed to give best drive-ability. I'd expect timing on the smaller cylinder Volvo engine to need less additional advance on CNG than the bigger cylinder V8's (which also probably have advance curves set for lower octane petrol than our petrol).

I think I would have gone with a Stag TAP rather than AEB... less expensive, a narrower range to have to choose from, Windows interface so you can see on screen if the TAP is reading sensor(s) correctly and program the advance curve on-screen, maybe ask the supplier to advise/select which one you need for the Volvo and buy on the basis you can send it back if it turns out to be incompatible.
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Re: Conversion of a Volvo V70 (P80) 1999

#85 Post by CNG »

Thank you for this Simon. You're right about a timing-light. Too late now.

Unable to find definitive info on a TAP and with supply choices limited, I had to bite the bullet on this one. I sit here with an AEB510N + all the pricey ancillaries. AEB offering firmware for this engine is, "wot swung it" yet I'm having my doubts already. I've long-since disappeared up my own rectal-passage, left guilty of overthinking this.

Thing is, despite AEB offering specific model-specific wiring diagrams, they omit dip-switch settings, which is both typical to AEB documentation. or very likely a clue? Can't help notice that if we take AEB's word - this engine is a 4 cyl too?

Volvo firmware (Version 08) is grouped with Renault, thus Renault & Volvo get sole use of AEB's firmware variant [AEB510N-08]. There's also a dedicated Volvo/Renault dipswitch on the TAP.
Is this a clue? See dipswitch 3. I've looked thru' hte Renault info and see nothing. I ask, what's common/unique to Renault/Volvo engines that has AEB trouble with specific firmware and a whole distinct Volvo/ Renault dipswitch?
AEB510N-08 Renault.png
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AEB510N-08 Volvo.png
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AEB510N-08-Volvo_Renault.jpg
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I'm under the impression Volvo engines don't requires a TAP running LPG, thus specific to Renault and Volvo, does this narrow things down?

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Re: Conversion of a Volvo V70 (P80) 1999

#86 Post by LPGC »

Lots of well known bugs, typos, omissions, contradictory info and crazy spelling mistakes in some of the AEB documentation and software... the 2 classics are the wiring diagram that shows incorrect wiring for level sensors on mixer systems and software that spells 'high' as 'hitgh' in big letters on screen lol. Maybe just try the different advance settings and see which gives best results, start at 6 degrees and advance from there? I'd expect close to 12degrees advance to be right for low rpm no load on CNG.

Maybe if this TAP connects to TPS then dip3 relates to some aspect of the TPS on Volvo's and Renaults. Or maybe it affects how the timing advance 'comes in' again following an over-run condition (the TAP usually puts timing back to normal and is inactive during over-run?)... Some LPG ECU's advise setting certain settings on Renaults that effect fuelling following an over-run situation (to prevent stalling or poor drive-ability) but they don't mention Volvo's and there's no mention of ignition timing. Or could be something else I haven't thought of.

There are only small gains to be had from fitting a TAP on some LPG converted engines but a TAP is necessary on CNG converted engines.
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Re: Conversion of a Volvo V70 (P80) 1999

#87 Post by CNG »

Lots of well known bugs, typos, omissions, contradictory info and crazy spelling mistakes in some of the AEB documentation and software.
Ohhhh yes... Don't I know it.
wiring diagram that shows incorrect wiring for level sensors on mixer systems a
I've been a victim of that one... not mentioned or shown, I found out via Russian forums and 'Google translate', the AEB806 CNG gauge is made in several flavours, 5V or 12V, 90 Ohm too. Seems to depend on it being a Tuesday. AEB show the one drawing "To be wired as a std AEB gauge?" Right...
My 'flavour' of AEB806 requires a 160 Ohm resistor in the 12V line. It took more than a while for me to work this out.

I think it would only be an LPG Pro that'd believe me that it took best part of two days going thru' various bits of AEB documentation, most of it no longer available via AEB, thus a jigsaw puzzle of obscure downloads in Polish and Indian etc etc, Broadly because some parts are no longer in production, and finding several contradictions I had to get to the bottom of this TAP, before pulling the trigger.
This involved the correct leads, the conflicing part numbers, software, software-key, and engine-lists and drawings you see. And from past experience with AEB, I knew I was in for some hassle, but if I wanted this done, had to bite the bullet anyway.

Sorry for the spittle-flecked rant, but minded to AEB being kingmakers for LPG back in the day, I would wager AEB have a good deal to do with the poor rap LPG still gets. Anyways...

To the question, a link between Volvo and Renault which requires such dedication from AEB? Subsequent to my post I got onto Dai, (classicswede) and he had no clue either.This under the circumstances is fair enough - my current theory is that; if there's little to no gain with a TAP on LPG, this TAP is really a CNG only item. These engines must require much the same advance curves on CNG. With the knock-sensor etc doing the rest?

Dai suggests as you - suck it and see. Which seems sensible.

Best I shut-up and do that then.

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Re: Conversion of a Volvo V70 (P80) 1999

#88 Post by CNG »

Crank Sensor.png
Crank Sensor.png (59.01 KiB) Viewed 2645 times
The plug came un-crimped on mine so had to replace. In messing around with crank-sensors, and for what good it does, I've the answer to AEB's treatment of Renault/Volvo as one entity? I knew i was over-thinking this.... Turns out, only the plug changes, different for Denso varaints; Renault for certain models use the same inductive 2-wire crank sensor - which I think is 130 Ohms. These numbers might prove useful to someone:

Volvo 31331754
Volvo 12755777
Lemark LCS646
Denso 196-9102
walker 235-1319
Lucas LVRC567
Lucas SEB5079
INTERMOTOR 17277

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Re: Conversion of a Volvo V70 (P80) 1999

#89 Post by Gilbertd »

I don't think the cars are linked but Volvo and Renault trucks are the same company which might go some way to explaining it. Volvo used to be owned by Ford but no idea who owns them these days.
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Re: Conversion of a Volvo V70 (P80) 1999

#90 Post by Brian_H »

Geely own them now (Chinese vehicle manufacturer).

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Re: Conversion of a Volvo V70 (P80) 1999

#91 Post by CNG »

Whatever the corporate goings-on, for the purposes of conversions requiring TAPs, it's convenient to lump Volvo/Renault as one. This because both companies share the same crank-sensor which requires the same AEB software variant.

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Re: Conversion of a Volvo V70 (P80) 1999

#92 Post by CNG »

I'm confused. Two Qs here:

1) My limited experience of timing-advance with CNG has my Land-rover wanting 15 degs at idle, this against 6 degress with petrol. This AEB TAP grants the ability to switch-in or switch-out the TAP via taking a line from the throttle sensor. ie at idle the TAP can be set to have its threshold set to not switch in at all.

See above pix - LED to indicate 'TAP enabled', this adjusted via the trim-pot.

In this case, am I likely to want this? In fact, I've seen on my cooking-grade LR I want more advance at low-rpm, not less or none. Then again it's an old long-stroke engine. Surely, this ahem, modern engine, even at idle will still going to need significant advance at low rpm?

2) Am I required to connect one of the 5 x coils to the Nevo, (to get an RPM), or will Nevo get its RPM from the petrol injectors?

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Re: Conversion of a Volvo V70 (P80) 1999

#93 Post by LPGC »

Closed throttle doesn't necessarily mean idle rpm and idle rpm doesn't necessarily mean closed throttle... Closed throttle above idle rpm and the engine may be in over-run, idle rpm with none-closed throttle and the engine may be under load but at low rpm. It could well be that the TAP is only disabled during over-run.

TPS isn't accelerator position, it is actual throttle position... And even when you're not touching the accelerator, if the the throttle body flows idle air (as opposed to having a separate IAV) the throttle will still need to be open a little to maintain idle speed.

If these points are true of your Volvo (and they will be) then the TAP may well still be active at idle speed, just not active when you come off the throttle when the engine is in over-run. There are many possible reasons for such a strategy, all involving one or more of drive-ability, anti-stall, anti-knock and smooth running.
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Re: Conversion of a Volvo V70 (P80) 1999

#94 Post by Brian_H »

You'd want the options for rpm wire as follows

Connect to a single coil negative trigger wire (any coil, doesn't matter which)
Installation>Basic
Cylinders > 5
Rpm wire connection > RPM signal
ignition signal > 1 coil per cylinder (1:1)

That should be enough to get the right rpm signal showing in the software (matching the rev counter on the dash). I'm not sure what the rpm filter field does exactly, and its the one bit that doesn't seem to give any info either. That might be one for Simon to advise about if it matters.

For what its worth, I did have problems with the disco and the rpm wire with the Nevo (it would switch back to petrol on overrun and stay on that briefly afterwards) and the advice given at the time from Simon was just don't use the rpm wire on that, its been fine with the way he set it up like that (he did explain why thats the case, but I can't remember exactly what was said about it now). But seems it may vary depending on the engine/vehicle your dealing with.

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Re: Conversion of a Volvo V70 (P80) 1999

#95 Post by CNG »

Closed throttle doesn't necessarily mean idle rpm and idle rpm doesn't necessarily mean closed throttle...
Thanks LPGC, the second I read your opening sentence the penny dropped. Subsequent to posting this question, I spoke to Dai (classicswede) in my weekly 1-2 minute caht to him, where i fire my latest queries at him, and in our very short conversation, he considered I might not need it. I was in there anyway - or should i say my young son, he of "It'll be under 1300cc, yet which car does a 17YO convert to LPG?" fame, was in there anyway with a soldering-iron anyway.

He's found the 1-3.5V variable pin on the pedal-sensor, (tested as pin 5) and ran one anyway. If it pops and bangs on over-run etc, it won't be a biggy to connect. The bit I think I grasp is why when the 'stock timing' the TAP traces, is altered for over-run etc, there must be removal of advance even in stock form, nonetheless just to trace this via the TAP is not enough for CNG. It's the fact that the knock-back done under petrol has a different curve to it's methane sister. I think.

And thinking about this, the Land-rover runs a two curve electronical doo-wacky dizzy, which kinda beats a Lucas 45D, and the curves as far as I've ever got with them without a rolling-road, are very different...
Petrol.jpg
Petrol.jpg (18.23 KiB) Viewed 2383 times
Petrol


Gas.jpg
Gas.jpg (16.45 KiB) Viewed 2383 times
Methane

And whilst I've got the vacuum responses set identical, they almost certainly shouldn't be, but it works. It's odd running a 1960s Land-rover via a laptop, but it happens. And it’s never too late to have a happy childhood.
Last edited by CNG on Sat Aug 14, 2021 9:54 am, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Conversion of a Volvo V70 (P80) 1999

#96 Post by CNG »

Connect to a single coil negative trigger wire (any coil, doesn't matter which)
Installation>Basic
Cylinders > 5
Rpm wire connection > RPM signal
ignition signal > 1 coil per cylinder (1:1)
Thanks Brian. Turns out, a legacy of the previous Zavoli ECU is a wire coming off one coil. I used that. This project will be on hold for 12 days on hols. I'm near ready for my first firing-up. Standby.

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Re: Conversion of a Volvo V70 (P80) 1999

#97 Post by LPGC »

CNG wrote: Fri Aug 13, 2021 11:22 pm He's found the 1-3.5V variable pin on the pedal-sensor, (tested as pin 5) and ran one anyway. If it pops and bangs on over-run etc, it won't be a biggy to connect.
Again though, pedal sensor isn't the TPS sensor. It may work properly connected to the pedal sensor or may need connecting to TPS.

Another thing, he's found a 1-3.5v variable pin on the pedal sensor but does that pin have AC voltage or DC? A lot of pedal sensors use AC so in case output from the pedal sensor is shorted to a different wire the ECU will know it's shorted (all other electronics are DC). There are a few different pedal sensors outputs, think Volvo's have 3? On cars with AC pedal sensors 2 or more sensors are often run with different phase AC (input to 2 sensors might have opposite phase) so in case one output gets shorted to another output again the ECU can work out what the problem is likely to be (and for example not then think the driver has their foot to the floor when they've lifted off).
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Re: Conversion of a Volvo V70 (P80) 1999

#98 Post by CNG »

Again I think you might be right. This was an attempt to follow AEB's own drawing wrt to a very similar engine in the Volvo V60 - see 9 on the drawing:

TPS or Accellerator.png
TPS or Accellerator.png (186.11 KiB) Viewed 2328 times

Only had a cursory look at it, but it's not going to plan. The ECU doesn't seem to like my boy's efforts coming off the pedal-sensor as AEB's drawing. OBD is throwing throttle codes. I'm sure you're aware, more for benefit of others, this 1999 car was Volvo's first with an ETM, electronic throttle module, an output from that might do it.

I've n oscilliscope here, I'll have gander, and a word with Dai when we get back from hols. And thank you again for your watchful eye.

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Re: Conversion of a Volvo V70 (P80) 1999

#99 Post by LPGC »

No probs. Dai knows far more about Volvos and what was fitted on what models.
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Re: Conversion of a Volvo V70 (P80) 1999

#100 Post by CNG »

Well, Nevo is running. Kind of... Because all the wiring was complete and it was broadly ready to go, the boy and I had a quick play with it on hols (as you do). It ran poorly. Rang Dai and under his phone-instruction my boy had 10 min play. Dai came to the conclusion the Zavoli injectors were not large enough. We did an Auto set-up and the car was not good but drive-able. Under high-load it'd drop back to petrol, and this appeared to get worse when the tank was at quarter full. Now with 500ish miles under gas we're home again. In that time things improved. It would run happily whether given a full 200Bar tank or a 50Bar quarter tank.

We're a little perplexed as to why fuel-tank pressure did make a difference, and why it doesn't now. It's a Tomasetto AT12 (the 2018 model). Tomasetto have recently revamped the AT12. I wonder why?
01-Tomessetti-AT12-Manual-02.jpg
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03Tomessetti-AT12 Late type.png
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Last edited by CNG on Tue Aug 24, 2021 8:55 am, edited 1 time in total.

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