Conversion of a Volvo V70 (P80) 1999

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CNG
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Conversion of a Volvo V70 (P80) 1999

#1 Post by CNG »

Don't come on here too often, I'm about to fit a modern kit to my Volvo V70 (P80) 1999. Originally it had a factory-fit Necam with stepper etc. It acquired a lash-up DIY Zavoli box which has so many intermittent faults, best start again.

I'm seeking 'classicswede's' advice really, planned to buy from him. But I can't track him down.

I'll make this into a conversion thread for others to follow. At this point I'm still looking to see which kit is most compatible, it looks like an OBD ECU would be advisable. Polish kits look attractive for features and price. I've some Hana or Keihn injectors ready. It's a 5-pot non-Turbo. Controller front-runners seem to be:

1) AC Stag QMAX Plus OBD
2) KME Nevo Pro OBD
https://nevo.kme.eu/en/images/schematy_ ... VO_pro.pdf
3) LPGTech 326 OBD

The KME ECU takes everything from the OBD, there's no physical wiring to stuff like the Lambda. Saves wiring.... We'll see. I march on.

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Re: Conversion of a Volvo V70 (P80) 1999

#2 Post by Gilbertd »

Not difficult to track down, https://www.classicswede.co.uk/
96 Saab 900XS, AEB Leo, sold
93 Range Rover 4.2LSE, Lovato LovEco, sold
97 Range Rover 4.0SE, multipoint, sold
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96 Range Rover 4.6HSE Ascot, AEB Leo, my spare


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CNG
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Re: Conversion of a Volvo V70 (P80) 1999

#3 Post by CNG »

Yes, got him. Spoke to 'Classicswede' just now. He's the boy for Volvo LPG. and he points to a KME box... getting me his shopping-list together now. We standby.

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Re: Conversion of a Volvo V70 (P80) 1999

#4 Post by LPGC »

I am currently converting a Japanese import 2005 Volvo XC70 T5 with only around 75000miles.

Converted loads of Volvo T5s in the past and never had a problem but there is a problem with this one... Overheating - The reducer gets hot, top hose gets hot but seems to be no flow through the radiator. So I removed the thermostat, same results. Had a chat with Dai @Classicswede last night, Dai's a mate but we haven't spoken for a while, was good to catch up... and ask his advice! Today I'm going to check the radiator isn't blocked (but it would have to be a severe block). Suspect water pump or cracked liner... but still have to wonder why it seems to push water through the reducer but not through the rad when the thermostat has been removed. When the car came in it had a rag stuffed down the side of the coolant expansion tank, and unusually for a lowish mileage car some of the pipe clips to the thermostat housing and expansion tank are not Volvo original clips but have been replaced with J clips / fuel hose type pipe clips. The coolant looks almost luminous green, I have wondered if it's the water-less type.

Should have been a relatively easy job but is turning out to be anything but!

You're into Volvo's too CNG... Do you have any other ideas re the overheating?
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Re: Conversion of a Volvo V70 (P80) 1999

#5 Post by LPGC »

Seems it's the water pump at fault...
Rad flows well, flushed all the luminous coolant out and re-filled with plain water (for testing purposes).
Removed the top hose from the thermostat housing and started the engine from cold. With no thermostat fitted water should be coming out of there quickly with the engine running and increasingly quick with increasing engine rpm, had a mate rev it while I watched, water just trickled out regardless of the engine running or off and regardless of rpm, it probably only trickled out due to the higher level of water in the expansion tank.
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disco stu
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Re: Conversion of a Volvo V70 (P80) 1999

#6 Post by disco stu »

The rag inside the coolant expansion tank or next to it?
Mitsubishi Pajero 1999 3.5L-AC Stag 300 ISA2
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Re: Conversion of a Volvo V70 (P80) 1999

#7 Post by LPGC »

disco stu wrote: Fri Apr 09, 2021 9:25 am The rag inside the coolant expansion tank or next to it?
Next to. But the current owner reckons he put the rag there to wipe the dipstick with.

I've arranged with the Volvo owner that we'll be farming the job of changing the water pump out to a local garage because I'm too booked up with LPG work to have time to fit it myself. New pump, cambelt (which drives the pump), tensioner and idlers supplied and fitted for £250. The garage is half a mile from here and all downhill, so I'll be able to start it from cold and get it there without it overheating.
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Re: Conversion of a Volvo V70 (P80) 1999

#8 Post by CNG »

Sorry, late to the party - I've not seen issues with overheating in the three P80s I've owned, only they've all been factory-fit variants, rather than conversions. The only thing that gets insufficient cooling in those is the autobox, but that's a whole other thread.

And as for this particular project, it is yet another factory fit. It lives with a lash-in Zavoli conversion becuase a PO got to it weeks before me, and ripped-out the factory-fit CNG Koltec/Necam.

Allow me to digress... Incredibe or not, the clown that fitted this abortion-conversion lectures in a college near me... now ask me what he teaches?

Guess Accountancy? Law?... Bricklaying... Hairdressing?? You 'd be wrong. Nope... none of those...

Car mechanics...

This Scotchlok'ed 'thing' is a real sight, and no... it doesn't run. The adage, "If you can't do... teach" stands good. Kinda' worrying when the man's responsible for the garage trade's next generation.

I'm quite a fan of the factory-fit Necam stepper motor type. Yes, yes, I know what you're thinking, it's far from great and has a few issues, but I've long since got my head around Necam fitment. I've several used sets knocking about, hence this thread might wind-up with me plonking one of my spare Necam sets back in. But Dai (classicswede) says he can sort me out.
Not being LPG, but being a conversion (or return to stock) with the 'Gas of the God's' rather than it's poor relation, Dai seems to think we might need a TAP (timing advance processor). It's another complication if we move away form stock Necam - we'll see.

To date the car's been:

Stock factory fit CNG > > Zavoli LPG lash-up > > soon to be stock factory fit CNG or 'Dai's recommended'.

Trouble with this conversion is that it's rather obscure - in the UK anyway. No one to ask.... If there's one car we can be pretty sure has never had a CNG conversion, it's a CNG Volvo.


It's a chat with Dai when he's ready I think.

disco stu
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Re: Conversion of a Volvo V70 (P80) 1999

#9 Post by disco stu »

So the factory set up doesn't control ignition timing on these?

Funny what you say about previous owner. In my circles "professional" is a bit of curse word, just so many poor professionals around, in Australia at least. When you find a good one though...... (I'm also very conscious that LPGC is a professional, and obviously knows his stuff and is extremely helpful). This is why I fix all my own cars, because I want it done right. The amount of issues I've fixed for others that "professionals" couldn't fix after throwing thousands of dollars at it, one I diagnosed in 5 min, 20 min of googling found me a work around for the factory immobilizer, and 30 min pulling out the electronics and bypassing immobilizer. On a car I had never worked on previously.

And scotch locks........evil things
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Brian_H
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Re: Conversion of a Volvo V70 (P80) 1999

#10 Post by Brian_H »

The Necam system has a second ecu that has its own map, it works in a different manner to the later sequential type systems. I don't know if you got them over in Australia at all, but a few manufacturers had their kit fitted as "factory conversions", all be it that they didn't do it as it came off the production line, more sent a new car to have it done at either Millbrook or Tickford's workshops. Ford, Vauxhall and Volvo all supplied them either with Necam or Koletc branded hardware. The Ford one I had sent the Ford engine ecu into open loop mode and managed fueling from there, including cutting off the lambda sensor in the case of mine and using it as an input for the gas ecu. I gather the Vauxhall version had an emulated output to keep the petrol ecu happy, maybe mine did too but it stopped working by the time it got to me.

The electronics started going south on mine, and the car was heading in the same way, so I ended up putting a new front end on in place of it and using that for around 18 months before scrapping the car, having stripped the front end off and reused that later on. upto the point it started struggling to keep the tank solenoid open, it worked well without major interfearence for the most part. Undoing the wiring was interesting to see where it actually connected into, unlike other systems there was also connections to the tps, injector positive feed (to cut power to petrol injectors like a sequential has an injector cut on each injector) and the intercepted lambda. So its quite possible it would alter timing with the appropiate connections as well, as said above probabbly necessary in the case of CNG. The downsides to the Necam setup are mostly lack of diagnostics (which can be worked around), you can't swap ecus from a different vehicle or engine as you can't reprogram them (I think the setup is held on a EEprom though can't verify that for sure) and some of the bits are either expensive or unobtainable in the case of the GSI type injectors. The EGI metering head type is less of an issue in that respect.

And scotch locks are the devils work as above, hate the bloddy things

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Re: Conversion of a Volvo V70 (P80) 1999

#11 Post by LPGC »

I once sold an LPG DIY kit to a guy who, when I asked what he did for a living, told me he designed satellites. I'm interested in space etc myself so I know what sort of heights above earth different types are likely to orbit at but when I asked he didn't give me a straight answer as to what heights the satellites he designed orbited. Then I found he had fitted his LPG system using Scotchlocks.. I think really he installed satellite dishes but designing satellites might have been part of a chat up line he used with the ladies.

Dai knows what he's doing, if he says you need a TAP for the aftermarket CNG conversion on the Volvo you will do and I would expect so too. With the aftermarket system running the original ECU will believe the engine is still running on petrol and ignition timing would be too retarded for CNG.

I have also lectured / 'delivered' car mechanics at college lol. But at least I have the knowledge, skills and experience to tell it how it is and get it right. On another forum a couple of years ago I had an argument with a guy who taught MOT testers.. but he didn't seem to know the MOT rules very well himself. My dad's mate was a lecturer on mechanics when I was a kid, dad reckoned he seemed to know all the theory but couldn't do much in practice, if they were working on his or dad's car dad had all the ideas and did all the work lol.
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disco stu
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Re: Conversion of a Volvo V70 (P80) 1999

#12 Post by disco stu »

And here I am, a teacher myself!!

I've had arguments with our motoring authority also, the guys who make the decisions don't actually know the rules but are the ones who still have the final say, even if wrong.
Mitsubishi Pajero 1999 3.5L-AC Stag 300 ISA2
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CNG
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Re: Conversion of a Volvo V70 (P80) 1999

#13 Post by CNG »

I'll detail the Necam set-up in 98/99MY Volvo Bi-fuels. It's a proper factory-fit integrated into the central Denso ECU with the rest of the car's electronics. The 96/97MY had a distinct Necam box and was no more than a factory conversion. By 98/99 it was semi-integrated with the Denso ECU.

It's not great, there's no easy diagnostics, you're left swapping about until it works. If you've not got a stack of known 'working parts' you're stuffed - but i have. It runs a stepper in a 6 cyl gas distributor, (one port blocked in 5 cyl Volvos). I assume all the TAP functions etc run inside its ECU, its use is seamless.

Aside from lack of diagnostics the weak-point is the stepper, and non-existent info and parts for the thing. I've an electronics background and have spent weeks in the past getting my head round it. Well enough to keep these going. And I've collected a heap of used parts as I've seen them appear on the Bay of E.

Is it any good, frankly no - but if it's already in there and works - there's little point in removing it. Although clearly better, I can't see how fitting a modern multi-point system will give gains vast enough to make real sense, the Necam works and, because I have parts, I can keep it that way. I have this stuff to save money, not spend it.

I'm seeking a modern kit form Dai only becuase the Necam has been removed, and the current chocolate block/ scotchlok concoction has got to go. Half the loom has been hacked around, thus it won't be straight-forward shoving a Necam factory-fit back in.

But with a Necam, you don't suffer one of those car-accessory-shop changeover/fuel-gauge switches nailed to the fascia, there's a fuel gauge integrated in your speedo cluster, and it looks and behaves as a factory-fit item should.

The P2 Volvo until 2005 also had this system. With good reason, the LPG trade loathes Necam, in fact, because of parts shortages, I've done a roaring trade selling stuff to the LPG trade. I've spent the last week fitting a tank. Plumbing next.

I cried when i saw it, rather than utilize the factory-fit stainless-pipe, and a few fittings, this idiot ripped it out. We've botch-job copper in its place. The big job is plumbing stainless pipe back to factory. If it could be done in copper, it'd be 1-2 hours work.

You can get away with murder fitting LPG. Copper tube goes where you put it. LPG goes in an aerosol can - not so, natural gas. We're at 200Bar /3000 psi and tanks look more like welding-cylinders. One of those cheapo Stako 'aerosol-can grade' toroidal jobbies came out yesterday. I've been lucky, picked up a vastly pricey Luxfer Type 1 cylinder for pennies, and it went in yesterday. It doesn't expire until 2030. Time to break-out the stainless 6mm pipe and my trusty Swagelok pipe-tool. I'm putting everything back to stock in the rear now. Stainless is a pig to work, it's pricey and after one bend, work-hardens. The downside to 'The Gas of the Gods' is the install. It's awkward, the fittings and tools are hard to find, extreme-pricey and time-consuming. You'll need the tool shown, and if you can even find one, you'll be lucky to pay the price shown in the piccy. Yet my glass-fibre lightweight Luxfer tank is £2500-3000 new - I paid, £50 odd, see what I mean about lucky?! Proper pix soon.
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disco stu
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Re: Conversion of a Volvo V70 (P80) 1999

#14 Post by disco stu »

Watching this with interest. I've never played with cng, doesn't even seen to be available here. I knew it ran at higher pressure, but I had no idea it was that much higher
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Brian_H
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Re: Conversion of a Volvo V70 (P80) 1999

#15 Post by Brian_H »

Its barely available here - there are a handful of stations at best in the UK. Unless you happen to live near one of them, your really looking at Home-fill like CNG does, where you draw gas off the mains supply and compress it. He has posted about that previously.

Its used in some areas of the world - India and Malaysia I think use it quite widely?

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Re: Conversion of a Volvo V70 (P80) 1999

#16 Post by CNG »

I've never played with cng,
Oh... dear... chist.... yeeeeeeah....

No room to teapot about a workshop with a Stako and a 4 metre length of copper pipe. Sorry to be the one to break it to you, but LPG?... it is written, 'tis for "Whoopsies'. :D
Last edited by CNG on Sun Apr 11, 2021 11:24 am, edited 2 times in total.

CNG
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Re: Conversion of a Volvo V70 (P80) 1999

#17 Post by CNG »

Its used in some areas of the world - India and Malaysia I think use it quite widely?
I first saw GOTG used on a Zamboni, that's those things used to condition ice in skating-rinks. Larger fork-lift truck fleets use it too.

The UK lags about last in its use. For reasons we can guess, UK central government has always avoided the stuff. Argentina is No.1, about 60% of their vehicles run it.

John Lewis/ DHL/ Tenens and few other big corporates mess with it here. GASREC/CHIVE/DIRFT etc. I got a heap of cylinders from Tesco's fleet. Councils like it too, with their dust-cart fleet. One left-leaner had their mayor and town-commitee members justified with nine Volvo S80s. I caught a few of the parts when they got rid.

I've found most of my info from Indian forums. The Indians run little Maruti/Suzukis with it.

And Obama banged-on about it for a while. Shale-gas et al. The Yanks abundance of SG, means shale-gas has been a factor in keeping oil-prices low.

It's old and I think I've already put the map below up - if not, here it is again.



I march on...
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CNG
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Re: Conversion of a Volvo V70 (P80) 1999

#18 Post by CNG »

A question please:
Earlier I said I had a Type 1 Tank, my error I meant Type 3. It's an ex-Howard Tenen's tank. I got teh pick before LPGShop took stock of the rest. At one point there was about 30 of them. I think they're all gone now. See piccy.

Only the solenoid on these is 24V, understandable, came off their HGV fleet. I've been able to remove the 24V coil easily enough. Problem is, its bore is 10mm. Most 12V LPG solenoids I've seen are not 10mm.
I'm sure a ring around to Tinley or somebody will reveal one, but does anyone know, off-hand, which LPG solenoid coils are 10mm bore?

Has a VTI valve. I'm sure a call to VTI in Germany will find a 12V solenoid coil, - off the shelf. However, we won't need it to be a VTI price! i don't have to ask to know what VTi will charge + courier etc from Germany.

Methinks, a 10mm coil is a 10mm coil. Last outing I found £8.00 Chinese copy, OMVL vapouriser coils fitted my 3 x EMER tank valves dandy, and weren't £90 a throw. I'm a little fish in a big pond. I'm very aware, It's a bit like the word MARINE, anything GOTG goes out at 'Godlike' ie: 4-5 x LPG prices.

Anyone?
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hitman2
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Re: Conversion of a Volvo V70 (P80) 1999

#19 Post by hitman2 »


CNG
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Re: Conversion of a Volvo V70 (P80) 1999

#20 Post by CNG »

Thanks, that was quick! Sweet jeez, spent a good hour looking for that on eBay and others, 9.5mm might not make it but a Dremel could just scrape it? 14W is a bit high, but did I want jam on it? It's £4, I can't rightly bitch....

Thanks again.
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Last edited by CNG on Sat Apr 10, 2021 6:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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