Advice please!

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LPGC
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Re: Advice please!

#281 Post by LPGC » Thu Oct 15, 2020 7:32 pm

It' a good idea to tighten olive joints onto polypipe fittings (the end fittings that emulate copper pipe ends) tighter than you'd expect to tighten olives onto copper pipe. I tighten them easily enough that the olive crushes the brass a bit, if the olive will slide off the brass when disassembled it's probably a lot less tight than I'd do them up. But if they're not leaking you might want to leave them alone.

If inlet and outlet threads are the same size would expect the pipe nuts to have the same hex size, not that it matters. Common hex size for 6mm M10 fittings are 12 and 13mm, common for 8mm M12 fittings are 13 and 14mm, but other sizes for both types are used. If you get into none metric fittings and stuff with tapered threads there are all the none metric hex fittings.
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Re: Advice please!

#282 Post by Pinger » Fri Oct 16, 2020 9:42 am

Brian_H wrote:
Thu Oct 15, 2020 7:15 pm
The easy way to depressurise it, is to shut off the tank (either manual shutoff on the multivalve, or you may be able to get away with disconnecting the rear solenoid/removing the coil from the post, whatever is easier). Then just let it run till it hits low pressure, if you want to be sure give it a few seconds and try switching back again a few times you can be sure its empty.
Good point.
What caught me out was when I first broke the joint there was a constant leak of gas and this went on for some time then what seemed to be a last flurry, a final hurrah where the fitting frosted over and the flow seemed to stop. The frost cleared, I touched the fitting with the spanner and off it went. Probably quite low pressure relatively but the slippiness of the brass sure let it fly.
Brian_H wrote:
Thu Oct 15, 2020 7:15 pm
Easy way for leak checking is either soapy water or leak detector spray applied to anywhere suspect, and look for bubbles. Though you'd normally smell it as well.
I have a proper leak detector if needed but I trusted my nose and ears yesterday. I'll carry the spanners with me in the truck in case further tightening is necessary.
Brian_H wrote:
Thu Oct 15, 2020 7:15 pm
the 13/14mm thing might just be to make it easier so you don't need two of the same spanners for the fittings. So you should be able to hold the end in the right place and tighen against the spanner rather than crushing the olive in the compression joint too far.
Probably the thinking behind it bit the thought only occurred after I'd primed the system.
At the time, on my mind was the fact that the fittings took a week to arrive despite being sent by Fedex which is TT's 'next day' delivery option and that they were absent initially when the filter arrived. I kind of assumed a supply SNAFU and ascribed the different sizes to that. I'm easily misled!

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Re: Advice please!

#283 Post by Pinger » Fri Oct 16, 2020 10:00 am

LPGC wrote:
Thu Oct 15, 2020 7:32 pm
It' a good idea to tighten olive joints onto polypipe fittings (the end fittings that emulate copper pipe ends) tighter than you'd expect to tighten olives onto copper pipe. I tighten them easily enough that the olive crushes the brass a bit, if the olive will slide off the brass when disassembled it's probably a lot less tight than I'd do them up. But if they're not leaking you might want to leave them alone.
My observation with the brass emulating copper was of greater fragility given a knock (largely illusory as they are so far embedded in the fitting as to be safe). Working with brass and polypipe was new to me so I had to kind of guess my way. Copper not so much as I've experience with brake pipes and I could see how the copper had yielded on the other LPG fittings.
For now, I think I'll leave them alone. WCS one jumps, only the reducer one can actually break free - and that would kill the motor ASAP. That fitting is done up pretty tight though (ditto tank one). The filter ones I'll tweak next time the system is depressurised - though given it won't fly, maybe before. When I'm tightening these fittings I'm going as tight as I think the brass threads can take without stripping. Brass doesn't give much feedback though. When I think back, I think I did the final tightening of the filter fittings with bracket bolted to the firewall so to the limit of its bending. Really wish I'd spotted the two spanner option earlier. I already had a good 'feel' for that after doing the polypipe fittings.
LPGC wrote:
Thu Oct 15, 2020 7:32 pm
If inlet and outlet threads are the same size would expect the pipe nuts to have the same hex size, not that it matters. Common hex size for 6mm M10 fittings are 12 and 13mm, common for 8mm M12 fittings are 13 and 14mm, but other sizes for both types are used. If you get into none metric fittings and stuff with tapered threads there are all the none metric hex fittings.
Different sizes with only one of each spanner size does facilitate tightening when the fittings are in line as they are here. Just wish I'd twigged earlier.

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Re: Advice please!

#284 Post by Pinger » Tue Oct 20, 2020 4:38 pm

Wasn't entirely confident that the fittings were tight enough so dropped the pressure off the line (left the engine idling - cheers Brian-H) and had another look at things.
Tightened all the fittings to an inch of their lives and the two 8mm ones in and out of the filter I 'tethered' by fitting a clip right behind the polypipe gland and bolted to the filter mounting bracket. My thinking is that if the brass fitting does escape the olive then it isn't completely free to dump liquid LPG at tank pressure on top of the distributor with the engine still turning and hence the tank valve still open.

With 'brass emulating copper', are steel olives better? Among the olives TT supplied there are two steel ones (6mm) and I thought about using them at the tank and reducer where it's still 6mm. But wondered if the extra force to crush steel compared to brass wasn't self defeating. Any thoughts on this? As it was, at the tank, the brass olive was showing signs of 'digging in' so I left it there and tightened the ferrule as much as I dared.
Anyway, happier with the set up now than before and leak tested and zero leaks.
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Re: Advice please!

#285 Post by Brian_H » Tue Oct 20, 2020 6:02 pm

It may be that your finding it a bit tight because of the ptfe tape you've used - you shouldn't need it, as the olive does the seal anyway there. I'd wonder if your not getting as much pressure on the olive as you need to cause it to bite into the pipe, hard to tell without taking it out again, but if you've tightened it more than before I'd expect it to be ok now.

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Re: Advice please!

#286 Post by Pinger » Tue Oct 20, 2020 6:55 pm

Brian_H wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 6:02 pm
It may be that your finding it a bit tight because of the ptfe tape you've used - you shouldn't need it, as the olive does the seal anyway there. I'd wonder if your not getting as much pressure on the olive as you need to cause it to bite into the pipe, hard to tell without taking it out again, but if you've tightened it more than before I'd expect it to be ok now.
It's a thread tightening thing.
With steel on steel I can tighten just to the point of feeling it yield and stop. With brass I'm waiting for a thread to strip without warning. I was braver with the reducer and filter as I was going brass into steel and with spare brass if I overdid it. At the valve, I was steel into the brass of the valve with the obvious consequence if I got it wrong!
Decades of tightening nuts and bolts but this brass malarkey is all new. Ditto crushing olives.

In truth I haven't actually had a leak. What spooked me a bit was on Saturday when I dropped the pressure letting the engine idle I then slackened (slightly) the filter inlet fitting and heard it hissing a bit so left it to bleed down. When I came back to it the 'brass emulating copper' part had jumped 1/4'' and when I removed it its olive was very slightly overhanging its end. It's that ability to escape the olive that spooks me - hence the 'tethers'.

Can't help but think the 'brass emulating copper' would benefit being tinned with solder to give the olive something softer to bite into. Or that all threads should be steel and the olive also. Now that I'm aware of the parts, possibly I'll look at for them in materials I'm more confident with - read, inherently stronger. No matter, I'm happy that what I did today is good enough. In a way I just wasn't after my first attempt.

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Re: Advice please!

#287 Post by LPGC » Tue Oct 20, 2020 8:36 pm

The Faro fittings are something you can use with confidence when you've done a few, I've done many thousands and now they're something I can fit in a few seconds and know there won't be a problem. I do tighten them to the extent there's some 'digging in' but I prefer the (usual) brass to brass (including brass olives) setup to brass to steel / steel olives.

Where possible I use Faro threaded Faro connectors instead of 'copper equivalent' type ends anyway, always possible on the outlet of a modern multivalve. Otherwise be careful not to overtighten olive onto brass Faro fittings on some multivalves as doing so can crack the multivalve before stripping the threads.

The 8mm Faro brass copper equivalent ends can be cut shorter (if space is tight) for most fittings. 6mm Faro brass copper equivalent ends can usually be cut down but not usually as much as 8mm ends and not for certain types of fittings such as pipe joiners.

E.g. On a 'normal' 0 degree (external toroidal tank) multivalve I might use a 10mm thread to 8mm copper (6mm internal) Faro fitting on the outlet, use a 120 degree 8mm copper equivalent on the fill but cut the length of this fitting down to only around 20mm in length.

Never use tapes / sealants on the Faro side of connectors, maybe use a little gas paste on brass to brass threaded fittings, always use a little gas paste or liquid PTFE on threaded connectors that involve something other than brass (even if brass is used on one side of the joint). Always use tape or liquid PTFE on tapered threaded joints.
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Re: Advice please!

#288 Post by Pinger » Wed Oct 21, 2020 9:50 am

Thanks LPGC - more useful info from the forum.
The Faro fittings are a bit of a shove dry but when tightened (and with barbs) they inspire confidence (in a way that the brass as copper hasn't immediately with me) and I'm happy to do them 'dry' (including threads). I'm only using PTFE to indulge my dislike of dry threads and a lubricant doesn't seem appropriate.
I'll stick with brass olives on brass then but what crossed my mind was that a brass copper emulator fitting could have the emulator part severed and then drilled to accept copper pipe soldered in. Thus, the olive is biting down on copper. Unless I'm told this is a very bad idea, I might try this on my fill line.

LPGC wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 8:36 pm
Where possible I use Faro threaded Faro connectors instead of 'copper equivalent' type ends anyway, always possible on the outlet of a modern multivalve. Otherwise be careful not to overtighten olive onto brass Faro fittings on some multivalves as doing so can crack the multivalve before stripping the threads.
Would I be correct in thinking such a fitting would have to be fitted before the polypipe is attached to it?

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Re: Advice please!

#289 Post by LPGC » Wed Oct 21, 2020 11:02 am

Strictly speaking Faro threaded connectors should be fully tightened before Faro pipe is attached or Faro pipe will rotate with the fitting and kink. But Faro will rotate on the fitting when the Faro pipenut is slack.

When you've become accustomed to using Faro ends in olive fittings you might not see much of a reason for soldering copper pipe onto Faro fittings. There are even Faro to flanged type fittings available.
Last edited by LPGC on Thu Oct 22, 2020 10:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Advice please!

#290 Post by Pinger » Wed Oct 21, 2020 12:02 pm

LPGC wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 11:02 am
Strictly speaking Faro threaded connectors should be fully tightened before Faro pipe is attached or Faro pipe will rotate with the fitting and kink. But Faro will rotate on the fitting when the fitting is slack.
Yep, had to keep an eye out for that.
LPGC wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 11:02 am
When you've become accustomed to using Faro ends in olive fittings you might not see much of a reason for soldering copper pipe onto Faro fittings. There are even Faro to flanged type fittings available.
Just found a load of different type of fittings at LPG Shop here >> https://www.lpgshop.co.uk/polypipe-faro-fittings/
Anywhere else I should be looking?
If I'm understanding this >> https://www.lpgshop.co.uk/8mm-polypipe- ... -coupling/ correctly - then the polypipe to copper option exists already?

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Re: Advice please!

#291 Post by LPGC » Thu Oct 22, 2020 10:46 am

LPGShop and TinleyTech are both good suppliers of Faro fittings.

Yes there's a great range of Faro fittings available, some of the most basic such as Faro to copper adapters have been around longer than most other types of Faro fittings.

It was always possible to get from Faro to any other type fitting using fittings/adapters in series but as more types of Faro fitting have appeared on the market it has become possible to get from Faro to some of the more obscure type fittings using fewer fittings/adapters in series.

Mick @Foxvehicles is great at knowing how to get from one type fitting to another type fitting using as few adapters in series as possible.
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Re: Advice please!

#292 Post by Pinger » Thu Oct 22, 2020 6:51 pm

Thanks LPGC - I'm more aware now of other available fittings. Useful if I have more plumbing to do. But.....
Gilbertd wrote:
Fri Apr 24, 2020 7:42 pm
If you were to pull the vapouriser apart and see the size of the gas vapour chamber, you'd realise that a couple of tablespoons is getting on for half the capacity so it will have restricted the amount of gas it can supply at higher loads. What you need to do now, lockdown restrictions permitting, is connect the laptop, sit it in the passenger footwell so you can keep an eye on it, find a longish, straight bit of road, floor the throttle and see what the actuator does. It will probably stay around the default with the lambda sensor flicking between green and red until you reach a certain point in the rev range where the lambda sensor will go permanently lean and the actuator will open up as far as it can go. That shows that you have a further restriction somewhere, your task, should you wish to accept it, is to find out where.....
..... my 'task' - as it was outlined had me thinking I was probably going to have to resort to dual reducers....

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Re: Advice please!

#293 Post by Pinger » Thu Oct 22, 2020 6:58 pm

But this remark....
LPGC wrote:
Fri Sep 18, 2020 4:44 pm
On your vehicle (5.7V8) I would have run 8mm line from the tank to the engine bay, not 6mm. The narrower pipe (in relation to size/power of the engine) could be a problem, though usually narrower pipe isn't so much of a problem on a mixer setup as it is on an injection setup. 8mm Pipe will flow more than 6mm pipe (so is better for bigger engines) even if other fittings (tank outlet, solenoids, reducer inlets, etc) are 6mm.

.....led me to re-piping in 8mm (along with a new filter) and the task as accepted is complete!
WOT to 5000 rpm, O2 showing slightly rich with an actuator position of circa 160. Result!
Fuel starvation banished I can start opening up the mixer and chase more air flow.

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Re: Advice please!

#294 Post by Gilbertd » Thu Oct 22, 2020 8:32 pm

Brilliant news and about bloody time! I was getting bored reading about the finer points of different fittings and I must admit, you've gone to town on those fittings. What's wrong with self tappers and tie wraps like us mere mortals would have used? You've even neatly ground down the edges of the plate rather than leaving it just as it came from the hacksaw/angle grinder/tins snips or whatever was used to chew it out of a plain sheet.

At least you've proved now that the R90E is capable of supplying a larger engine just like the manufacturers claim, but only if the rest of the install is done properly. See if you can get the default at idle the same as at open throttle now......
96 Saab 900XS, AEB Leo, sold
93 Range Rover 4.2LSE, Lovato LovEco, sold
97 Range Rover 4.0SE, multipoint, sold
98 Ex-Police Range Rover 4.0, AEB Leo, daily motor
96 Range Rover 4.6HSE Ascot, AEB Leo, my spare


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Re: Advice please!

#295 Post by Pinger » Thu Oct 22, 2020 9:09 pm

Gilbertd wrote:
Thu Oct 22, 2020 8:32 pm
Brilliant news and about bloody time! I was getting bored reading about the finer points of different fittings and I must admit, you've gone to town on those fittings. What's wrong with self tappers and tie wraps like us mere mortals would have used? You've even neatly ground down the edges of the plate rather than leaving it just as it came from the hacksaw/angle grinder/tins snips or whatever was used to chew it out of a plain sheet.
Yep, I noticed the five months between the quoted posts too! In my defence, there's been a lot of other stuff too but better late than never is a motto used here a lot.
Had a 130 mile drive today and if the truck had been driving as it was today when I first got it - I'm not sure I'd have ever visited this forum. And there's more to come.
And, one more tether! That's all three fittings in the engine bay done and worth it for the peace of mind. You've spotted that one of my preferred hand tools is a roll of 40# grit!
Gilbertd wrote:
Thu Oct 22, 2020 8:32 pm
At least you've proved now that the R90E is capable of supplying a larger engine just like the manufacturers claim, but only if the rest of the install is done properly. See if you can get the default at idle the same as at open throttle now......
True, but there was an element of doubt (190hp aint 260hp after all). I guess that's why I'm so relieved at today's findings. I really wasn't looking forward to a dual reducer install. The overtaking opportunities today made safe by what's been done means it had to be done - and dual reducers too if that's what it was going to take.

Your most recent challenge... I think I'll probably have to decline.
60 miles into the journey (lunch stop) after having the lap top hooked up earlier I wanted a look to see where the default had settled at but lap top told me to 'load drivers' so that didn't happen. I think I'm stuck with an idle setting circa 90 and out of idle circa 150. What is letting me away with that is the moment I pick up the throttle, the TPS immediately goes to box#2 and the actuator to default. There's the merest hint of green on the O2 readings then all is OK. I enabled the ORFCO set conservatively at 1500 rpm and 80 (so as not to be dipping way down below idle setting) and it drove beautifully for the rest of the day. I just don't think that the preferred closeness of actuator positions is going to be possible on this engine. The settings it arrived with also point to this. But when on throttle it immediately goes to default (without all the back and forth from O2 data - then it's perfectly drivable - providing I can maintain a favourable default position).

Next on the to-do list is derestricting the air side of the mixer and then drill down on what else can be done re the disparity in actuator positions. Eg, what is 'idle' (as the AEB sees it to compute its actuator setting) closed throttle or rpm? Does ORFCO setting contribute - and to which setting - idle or out of idle? Point here being to mitigate against the low idle actuator setting being allowed to predominate.

Anyway, enough for now (OK, there'll be another question on my Brim To Brim thread in a moment). Seeing the fuel starvation issue that has plagued my ownership of this truck since I got it resolved today was just brilliant. The way drove was even better. I thank all of you for all of the help you've given me to achieve that.
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Re: Advice please!

#296 Post by Gilbertd » Thu Oct 22, 2020 10:28 pm

ORFCO is detected by the TPS reading. It sees the TPS showing what it has detected as the lowest voltage it has ever seen and when it drops to that it enables the over-run cut off. It obviously learns the lowest TPs voltage over a period as I've found with mine that if I drive at a constant speed (75-80 ish) for an hour or so (when on the Continent where you can drive at a constant speed for an hour), the first time I lift the throttle, even slightly, the cut off happens. My theory is that it is seeing a higher TPS voltage over a long period so assumes anything lower than that must be idle. Lift off completely so it sees the lowest TPS voltage and it then only cuts off when the throttle really is closed. The ORFCO setting is an absolute, it isn't added or subtracted from the idle or out of idle default. So with an idle default of 90 and a cut off setting of 80, it is only dropping down to slightly lean rather than very lean to give more engine braking. Mine runs at around 109 default, with idle at around 115 and I've got the ORFCO set at 30 and 1,700 rpm. So on a closed throttle when the revs are above 1,700, the actuator closes down to 30, so too lean to fire so giving a decent amount of engine braking, as soon as the revs get down to 1,700 the actuator opens up to the idle default but as the actuator was allowing some fuel in, it doesn't come back in with a bang, just nice and smoothly.

That bracket doesn't look as pretty as the other one......
96 Saab 900XS, AEB Leo, sold
93 Range Rover 4.2LSE, Lovato LovEco, sold
97 Range Rover 4.0SE, multipoint, sold
98 Ex-Police Range Rover 4.0, AEB Leo, daily motor
96 Range Rover 4.6HSE Ascot, AEB Leo, my spare


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Re: Advice please!

#297 Post by Pinger » Thu Oct 22, 2020 11:01 pm

Gilbertd wrote:
Thu Oct 22, 2020 10:28 pm
ORFCO is detected by the TPS reading. It sees the TPS showing what it has detected as the lowest voltage it has ever seen and when it drops to that it enables the over-run cut off. It obviously learns the lowest TPs voltage over a period as I've found with mine that if I drive at a constant speed (75-80 ish) for an hour or so (when on the Continent where you can drive at a constant speed for an hour), the first time I lift the throttle, even slightly, the cut off happens. My theory is that it is seeing a higher TPS voltage over a long period so assumes anything lower than that must be idle. Lift off completely so it sees the lowest TPS voltage and it then only cuts off when the throttle really is closed. The ORFCO setting is an absolute, it isn't added or subtracted from the idle or out of idle default. So with an idle default of 90 and a cut off setting of 80, it is only dropping down to slightly lean rather than very lean to give more engine braking. Mine runs at around 109 default, with idle at around 115 and I've got the ORFCO set at 30 and 1,700 rpm. So on a closed throttle when the revs are above 1,700, the actuator closes down to 30, so too lean to fire so giving a decent amount of engine braking, as soon as the revs get down to 1,700 the actuator opens up to the idle default but as the actuator was allowing some fuel in, it doesn't come back in with a bang, just nice and smoothly.
The bit I've highlighted in bold - that's what I was wondering.
Previous ORFCO settings I had were too severe. I can probably go lower on the actuator (40 was OK IIRC) but not go as low as 1300 as I previously did - for the reason you allude to. It's as well I went mild as mid journey when laptop become uncooperative I'd have been unable to change.
Gilbertd wrote:
Thu Oct 22, 2020 10:28 pm
That bracket doesn't look as pretty as the other one......
It was the other one - before it became repurposed. And it was something else prior to that!

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Re: Advice please!

#298 Post by Gilbertd » Thu Oct 22, 2020 11:10 pm

I found that if I set the revs too low, the engine would stall or almost stall, if I blipped the throttle and let the revs drop, hence setting it at 1,700 rpm which means it comes back in nicely without stumbling. Yours probably idles a bit lower than mine so you can get away with the fuel coming back on a bit lower.
96 Saab 900XS, AEB Leo, sold
93 Range Rover 4.2LSE, Lovato LovEco, sold
97 Range Rover 4.0SE, multipoint, sold
98 Ex-Police Range Rover 4.0, AEB Leo, daily motor
96 Range Rover 4.6HSE Ascot, AEB Leo, my spare


Proud member of the YCHJCYA2PDTHFH club.

Pinger
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Re: Advice please!

#299 Post by Pinger » Thu Oct 22, 2020 11:30 pm

At 1300 rpm and 30 it was horrible, hair trigger with a double bang and surged at 30-35mph.
At 1300 rpm and 40 it had lots of engine braking (almost a 'one pedal' car - like an EV) but could be a bit laggy.
Today, 1500 and 80 I got rid of it being rich above 1500, slight engine braking above 1500 rpm no other negative effects. Clean throttle response.
I'm just a little wary of how far the actuator has to move but the key it seems is to not set the rpm too low.
Watching what happens (O2 and actuator) going back on throttle is what I want a small dash display for.

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Re: Advice please!

#300 Post by Pinger » Fri Oct 23, 2020 3:02 pm

Default has risen slightly to 171.
Unblocked 3 more mixer holes and on the driveway it felt hesitant on opening the throttle and as I raised the rpm the actuator went fully open. Conclusion is then when I try to up the airflow the single reducer is lacking.
Re-blocked 2 holes so only 1 uncovered from yesterday and that seemed OK so will drive tomorrow and see what it's like and that fuel is keeping up with it. I'm probably at a point where I can live with what I have for now. Chasing more power with all that that entails heading into winter when I have to work outside on the truck probably isn't the smartest move I could make. Still have an ATF change and thermostat install to do so I'm guessing (assuming it drives OK tomorrow) I'll halt progress here and resume the other side of winter - but only if I think I'm short of power I should have.

Valve saver.
A good idea in principle but I never quite liked that they deliver at idle and stop with the throttle open (when the valves are under most duress). That, and fitting it downstream of the butterfly was going to be a proper PITA on my Vortec (the fuel 'spider' is right where it would have to go) I located the feed into the short length of tube between actuator and mixer.
My thinking was that it could possibly deliver on-throttle driven by the demand the gas supply sees. That is obviously a weaker signal than manifold vacuum below the plate so the reservoir is mounted quite high (but not so high as it can syphon) and the 'tap' is well open but it seems to be working.
Delivery so far is lower than recommended but a huge amount of the recommended dosage (when configured as recommended) must be delivered at idle and over-run. Mine is delivered in synch with how hard the motor is running so surely doesn't need to deliver as much. Or to put it another way - I've eliminated the waste at idle and over-run and kept the bit that matters.
Also, I have more assured shared delivery to all cylinders. Anyone familiar with Vortec inlet manifolds will know what I mean.

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