Advice please!

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Pinger
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Re: Advice please!

#261 Post by Pinger » Sun Sep 13, 2020 12:32 pm

LPGC wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 9:56 pm
Of course there are 'splitters' - simple T and Y connectors.
Good to hear. If I go the two reducers route, I've a fair amount of plumbing to do.
LPGC wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 9:56 pm
The idea behind installing the reducer facing sideways is so the diaphragm movement which should correspond to signal isn't affected by forward/backward acceleration/deceleration of the vehicle, so it doesn't matter which way (forward or backward) the adjustment screws face. Cornering forces are much lower than acceleration / deceleration forces... If you wanted both a bit of idle bypass and a bit more flow for a given signal then instead of dialling in a bit of idle bypass using the adjustment screw you could try fitting the reducer with it's outlet pointing face down so gravity would constantly pull down on the diaphragm a bit. I've never done this as part of a permanent install but I have experimented and seen richer mixtures, though mostly affected low load operation.
Never occurred to me that it could be manipulated in that way - a bumpy road could make life interesting!
It did cross my mind that the diaphragm could be manipulated by varying the pressure it sees on its reverse (control/reference) side eg, connect to manifold vacuum. That thought occurred as it would reduce my richness at idle. But when manifold pressure starts to drop at high rpm the mixture would be leaning off again. With a less restrictive mixer though... Possibly too course a manipulation?
LPGC wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 9:56 pm
Length of hoses on this type of setup doesn't make a lot of difference under constant conditions but can slow response for changing conditions.
It's the transients that concern me. Points to mounting both reducers (if I go that route) together. Simplifies the rest of the plumbing too - at the cost of relocating the battery (not that big a deal as the truck had a dual battery option so has space spare in the opposite side corner).
LPGC wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 9:56 pm
As soon as the TPS box that's highlighted moves to a new box the stepper moves very quickly to the default.
This appears to be my salvation at the moment.
LPGC wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 9:56 pm
Yes I have used both outlets from an R90 reducer, I expect the same as TT in that you'll get a bit more flow from the reducer using both outlets, not double the flow but a bit more. At least in part for the same reason we'd expect the usual 19mm pipe to flow more than if you used 12mm or narrower pipe (narrower pipe is often used on small engines between reducer and mixer, albeit using a 19mm>12mm adaptor if using an R90 or similar spec vaporiser). But with more volume in pipes you get slower response.
I'm going to try this before I do anything else.
My current thoughts on response are that it is good enough (and must remain so) to avoid back fires but as such transients are brief compared to maybe 10-15 seconds of WOT for overtaking, WOT must be rich enough.
My suspicion is that I'm going to have to resort to dual reducers. Two working with less bias (I am almost certainly having gas at pressure exiting the reducer) would alleviate the rich at idle and provide enough gas to properly exploit the new mixer. Dual outlets from the single reducer first though.

Pinger
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Re: Advice please!

#262 Post by Pinger » Thu Sep 17, 2020 4:56 pm

Some progress today.
Hooked up both reducer outlets and there seems to be an improvement. I haven't driven it yet (traffic was about to hit peak) but just with lap top hooked up it seems to be getting more gas.
On start up, default was 157 from last drive. Without any adjustments, default is now 115, idle is 90-100 and out of idle (3k rpm no load) is 110. More tomorrow.

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Re: Advice please!

#263 Post by Pinger » Fri Sep 18, 2020 4:06 pm

More experimenting and driving today and my conclusion is while it drives fine as it is up to 3/4 throttle and 4000 rpm, more throttle causes it do go chronically (surging) lean.
I tried it with 3 of the 11 air holes in the mixer blocked and again with 4 unblocked. The actuator setting at idle didn't move but for out of idle at 3000 rpm (no load) it rose from 118 to 130-137.
Given it's lean at higher loads/rpm then no point in opening more air holes until it gets more gas so plan is to use 2 reducers in parallel.

My current liquid pipes are 6mm OD. Does this connector here >> https://www.lpgshop.co.uk/copper-pipe-t ... -o6-6-6mm/ allow me to split the supply into 2? Assuming it does, can it be mounted anywhere eg, close to the reducers or is it better up on the bulkhead? Is copper mandatory for this additional line? Incidentally, is 6mm big enough for my engine? I've noticed 8mm pipe. What's that for if not the biggest engines? Is it possible I'm starving the reducer on the liquid side? The reducer doesn't look like it would accept larger (it has a screwed in fitting). Or is 8mm pipe for the filling side?
Is 'microbore' copper pipe as used in domestic heating systems the same pipe?

Does the 'rotational' orientation of the reducer matter? Ie, can it be mounted with the adjustment screws pointing upwards (rather than fore or aft as they usually seem to)?

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Re: Advice please!

#264 Post by LPGC » Fri Sep 18, 2020 4:44 pm

On your vehicle (5.7V8) I would have run 8mm line from the tank to the engine bay, not 6mm. The narrower pipe (in relation to size/power of the engine) could be a problem, though usually narrower pipe isn't so much of a problem on a mixer setup as it is on an injection setup. 8mm Pipe will flow more than 6mm pipe (so is better for bigger engines) even if other fittings (tank outlet, solenoids, reducer inlets, etc) are 6mm.

If your lines are copper you've linked to a compatible T (splitter). If your install has poly pipe under the car you could use a poly T instead of a copper pipe T, this could save having to use 3 x poly end fittings and keep the install tidier than using a copper T and 3 end fittings.

Regardless of what type is under the car you could use copper or polypipe in the engine bay.

Better to keep pipe lengths from the T to the reducers short and fairly equal length.. When you've run out of gas and refilled the tank the lines may at first contain a vapour lock. If you've got 2 reducers the one that flows the most gas to the engine and/or has the shortest feed pipe to the T might have it's gas feed bleed up quicker than the other.

There usually isn't much need to worry about rotational orientation but it shouldn't make any difference. Good to have the gas outlet near the bottom to help keep the unit free of heavy ends.
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Pinger
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Re: Advice please!

#265 Post by Pinger » Sat Sep 19, 2020 5:34 pm

Thanks LPGC.
Going to give some thought to pipe sizes (eg, if I can fit 8mm to my MV at the tank and run it to the engine bay and split it to two 6mm pipes) and start sourcing parts for (re)installing old reducer. Need to check filter as it is plumbed with 6mm. Think I've spotted a space for the reducer below existing one (hence orientation question as it will have to have the adjustors upwards for access).

Drove it today (actual (but brief) drive not just a test drive) and coming back up the hill between 2000 and 3000 rpm at 1/2 to 3/4 throttle it felt the strongest it ever has. If I can get that zest to continue further up the rev range...

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Re: Advice please!

#266 Post by Brian_H » Sat Sep 19, 2020 7:41 pm

You'd probabbly be better to keep the pipe size as big as possible for as much of the run as possible - these bits should help in doing that provided you can get them onto the multivalve and inside the housing if applicable
https://tinleytech.co.uk/shop/lpg-parts ... e-to-6-mm/
https://tinleytech.co.uk/shop/lpg-parts ... mm-open-t/
https://tinleytech.co.uk/shop/lpg-parts ... ize-x-1-m/

You would also need some clips for the new pipe as it is a different size.

Using them you should be able to keep the pipe at 8mm all the way to the reducer and then use the same adaptors at the reducer end to go back down to 6mm just as it enters the solenoid housing.

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Re: Advice please!

#267 Post by Pinger » Sun Sep 20, 2020 10:12 am

Thanks Brian_H.
I'd only been at the LPG Shop site (looking for water tees and at 6mm tees) and hadn't got around to poly pipe as yet - not least as I hadn't much of a clue about it or where to start! Your links are a great help - thanks.
I'll have a look at my MV later. It's on a 120 litre tank so hopefully at that size it has provision for 8mm pipe.

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Re: Advice please!

#268 Post by Brian_H » Sun Sep 20, 2020 8:14 pm

Very few do have an 8mm outlet - but you should find the above bits let you increase the pipe size with the 6mm MV outlet and I'd read Simon's reply above to mean you should find that helps anyway. Having had to replace the MV on mine due to having issues getting the pipes to line up with the housing (replacing the 8mm filler line with JIC type made the alignment more critical) I ended up having to use a 6mm outlet as it was all that was available that would fit the size tank I had other than the original valve. Thats on a v8 Disco 2 though, so less of an issue there. (the original valve was an 8mm outlet but was problematic getting to fill to full capacity as well).

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Re: Advice please!

#269 Post by Pinger » Mon Sep 21, 2020 2:57 pm

Brian_H wrote:
Sat Sep 19, 2020 7:41 pm
You'd probabbly be better to keep the pipe size as big as possible for as much of the run as possible - these bits should help in doing that provided you can get them onto the multivalve and inside the housing if applicable
https://tinleytech.co.uk/shop/lpg-parts ... e-to-6-mm/
https://tinleytech.co.uk/shop/lpg-parts ... mm-open-t/
https://tinleytech.co.uk/shop/lpg-parts ... ize-x-1-m/

You would also need some clips for the new pipe as it is a different size.

Using them you should be able to keep the pipe at 8mm all the way to the reducer and then use the same adaptors at the reducer end to go back down to 6mm just as it enters the solenoid housing.
Trying to get my head round polypipe.
This >> https://tinleytech.co.uk/shop/lpg-parts ... mm-open-t/ looks like the polypipe is retained with olives (looks a lot like 'Polyflow' kit that I used to send off-shore). If that is correct, then I can't make sense of this >> https://tinleytech.co.uk/shop/lpg-parts ... e-to-6-mm/
Looking at from right to left - the polypipe goes over the barb (with an olive) then the nut fastens it to the main body - yes? What's at the other side? I'm expecting that to screw straight into a MV, reducer or filter. Is the protruding pipe part to be treated as a (short) length of copper pipe with an olive and male fitting securing it to MV, reducer or filter?

Is it possible just re-running my main supply pipe with 8mm will alleviate my gas starvation?
If I have to run with two reducers - will using just the one outlet from each suffice?
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Re: Advice please!

#270 Post by Gilbertd » Mon Sep 21, 2020 5:49 pm

Pinger wrote:
Mon Sep 21, 2020 2:57 pm
Looking at from right to left - the polypipe goes over the barb (with an olive) then the nut fastens it to the main body - yes? What's at the other side? I'm expecting that to screw straight into a MV, reducer or filter. Is the protruding pipe part to be treated as a (short) length of copper pipe with an olive and male fitting securing it to MV, reducer or filter?
Yes you've got it. The adapter on the end of the Polypipe turns it into a straight length of solid pipe so is treated just the same as a bit of copper pipe would be.
Pinger wrote:
Mon Sep 21, 2020 2:57 pm
Is it possible just re-running my main supply pipe with 8mm will alleviate my gas starvation?
If I have to run with two reducers - will using just the one outlet from each suffice?
Possibly, but you'd need to try it to see. My old Range Rover Classic had an inadequate vaporiser on it when I first got it. I could accelerate up to a certain point in the rev range with the actuator happily moving up and down either side of the default but as soon as I hit a certain point it would start to open up and just keep going until it was fully open. So it would run fine at lower revs, throttle openings and load but as soon as I asked it to work for a living it couldn't cope. This sounds much like your situation so by increasing the amount of gas that can get there you should move the point where it can't supply enough to, hopefully, above your red line. If you need to run two vaporisers, I would think running from just a single outlet on both would be sufficient.
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Pinger
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Re: Advice please!

#271 Post by Pinger » Mon Sep 21, 2020 6:09 pm

Gilbertd wrote:
Mon Sep 21, 2020 5:49 pm

Yes you've got it. The adapter on the end of the Polypipe turns it into a straight length of solid pipe so is treated just the same as a bit of copper pipe would be.
Cheers, I know they are the thing to add to my shopping list.
Gilbertd wrote:
Mon Sep 21, 2020 5:49 pm
Possibly, but you'd need to try it to see. My old Range Rover Classic had an inadequate vaporiser on it when I first got it. I could accelerate up to a certain point in the rev range with the actuator happily moving up and down either side of the default but as soon as I hit a certain point it would start to open up and just keep going until it was fully open. So it would run fine at lower revs, throttle openings and load but as soon as I asked it to work for a living it couldn't cope. This sounds much like your situation so by increasing the amount of gas that can get there you should move the point where it can't supply enough to, hopefully, above your red line. If you need to run two vaporisers, I would think running from just a single outlet on both would be sufficient.
That's exactly where mine is. At some point before it dies, it's even showing rich at quite large throttle opening and rpms. Then it just dies.
I think I'll try the 8mm pipe first and if it still needs two reducers, I'll refit the old one.
How many solenoids do I need (for a single reducer)? Currently I have the one on the tank, the one on the reducer and an intermediate one on a filter on the bulkhead. I'm thinking about a larger (8mm filter). Better to retain an intermediate one?

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Re: Advice please!

#272 Post by Brian_H » Tue Sep 22, 2020 7:18 pm

I'm not sure you really need the intermediate one, but it may be easier to retain it just in case, at least it gives you less gas to vent if you have the front end apart again. I'd consider getting rid of it if going to a second reducer with another solenoid though (or run them through a relay instead to reduce the load on the ecu).

With the connectors above, you also want some 6mm olives for the copper side, you should be able to reuse the threaded fitting as long as its still in decent order, if it isn't get enough of them as well.

Pinger
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Re: Advice please!

#273 Post by Pinger » Tue Sep 22, 2020 8:25 pm

Brian_H wrote:
Tue Sep 22, 2020 7:18 pm
I'm not sure you really need the intermediate one, but it may be easier to retain it just in case, at least it gives you less gas to vent if you have the front end apart again. I'd consider getting rid of it if going to a second reducer with another solenoid though (or run them through a relay instead to reduce the load on the ecu).
Good point re multiplicity of solenoids with a second reducer and the load on the ECU. That the ECU switches the solenoids had occurred to me before but somehow adding another hadn't quite entered the thought process!
Brian_H wrote:
Tue Sep 22, 2020 7:18 pm
With the connectors above, you also want some 6mm olives for the copper side, you should be able to reuse the threaded fitting as long as its still in decent order, if it isn't get enough of them as well.
I'll add to the shopping list.

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Re: Advice please!

#274 Post by Pinger » Tue Sep 29, 2020 6:39 pm

Your advice please.
As per previous posts I'm re-doing the line from tank to reducer in 8mm polypipe and to further reduce bottlenecks ordered this >> https://tinleytech.co.uk/shop/lpg-parts ... pg-filter/
Specifically in the description it states suitability for polypipe.

''This filter has no shut-off valve. It may be used to filter liquid or vapour and is supplied with 8mm compression fittings for copper or poly pipe and 8mm hosetails for connection to orange hose.''

I took a photo of what was included with the filter but too large to post so I'll have to describe instead. The hosetails are there but obviously of no use here. The only other fittings are a pair of compression fittings with olives the ID of which is 8mm.

Am I missing something in that somehow those fittings are compatible with polypipe or have the polypipe fittings not been included as described?
I want to ask here in case I have missed something before I take it up with TT. As it is, given I'd ripped out the old 6mm pipe before I realised this I'm grounded and need this sorted ASAP.
TIA.

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Re: Advice please!

#275 Post by Brian_H » Tue Sep 29, 2020 8:28 pm

I think you'd want 2 of these https://tinleytech.co.uk/shop/lpg-parts ... e-to-8-mm/
One either side of it. Tinley tech are very reasonable to deal with on the phone though, so I'd recommend calling them to be sure.

Note the fittings above go from 8mm poly to 8mm copper - the ones posted before go from 8mm poly to 6mm copper - suttle and easily missed difference. But to get you back on the road sooner, Is that the only filter before the vapouriser or is there another on your shutoff solenoid housing? If theres another you could leave that one out at least for now until you get the required bits?

I'd read that description to mean you can connect polypipe using polypipe ends, or copper using whats in the kit. Certainly the photo on the site doesn't show anything for polypipe.

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Re: Advice please!

#276 Post by Pinger » Tue Sep 29, 2020 8:38 pm

Brian_H wrote:
Tue Sep 29, 2020 8:28 pm
I think you'd want 2 of these https://tinleytech.co.uk/shop/lpg-parts ... e-to-8-mm/
One either side of it. Tinley tech are very reasonable to deal with on the phone though, so I'd recommend calling them to be sure.
I figured after I realised the parts supplied weren't a straight fit that it would be a larger version of the 6mm ones I ordered for the reducer and MV that are required.
Brian_H wrote:
Tue Sep 29, 2020 8:28 pm
Note the fittings above go from 8mm poly to 8mm copper - the ones posted before go from 8mm poly to 6mm copper - suttle and easily missed difference. But to get you back on the road sooner, Is that the only filter before the vapouriser or is there another on your shutoff solenoid housing? If theres another you could leave that one out at least for now until you get the required bits?
That will be the only filter.
Brian_H wrote:
Tue Sep 29, 2020 8:28 pm
I'd read that description to mean you can connect polypipe using polypipe ends, or copper using whats in the kit. Certainly the photo on the site doesn't show anything for polypipe.
I wouldn't have ordered it but for the description stating it was suitable for polypipe. That I ordered 8m of polypipe should have been enough of a clue that I wasn't using copper.....
I'll phone them tomorrow.
Thanks - appreciated.

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Re: Advice please!

#277 Post by LPGC » Tue Sep 29, 2020 9:51 pm

It is very rare to need a filter that doesn't include a shut-off solenoid.

Most 8mm filter solenoids have M12 threaded connectors which allow use of 8mm copper pipe with olives and M12 pipe nuts or use with M12 threaded Faro connectors.

Some of the less usual design filters, especially those that don't include a solenoid, may have different female connectors (none metric). Although it seems the one you've bought uses M12 fittings, so you could still use M12 > wide Faro fittings instead of using compression fittings.
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Re: Advice please!

#278 Post by Pinger » Wed Sep 30, 2020 9:14 am

TT are sending the appropriate fittings.

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Re: Advice please!

#279 Post by Pinger » Thu Oct 15, 2020 4:45 pm

Some progress to report and the inevitable questions....
Finally got the last of the 8mm polypipe installed. Cut it fine - I ordered 8m and of that there is 100mm left over. With perhaps the same again in the line from the filter to the reducer - and that's it. I forgot about the run from the floor to the tank - stupid.

The new filter that held me up for the want of the correct fittings is now installed. As can be seen, I've mounted it at 90 degrees to what might be expected as it simplified the bracket I had to make and tucked it as close to the bulkhead rather than it hanging over the distributor which will be coming out when I get around to replacing the inlet manifold gasket. I was surprised to find that its fittings (the ones that hold the olives) were different sizes ie, one tightened with a 13mm spanner, the other with a 14mm. It now occurs to me that this could be intentional to enable better tightening of those fittings. Which a part of me is sorely tempted to do now - but is that wise now the system is primed with gas or do I just leave them alone? (I tightened them to the limit of my ability to hold the filter by hand and there's no leaks - I jumped the solenoids to check for leaks).
The reason I ask is the brass fittings behave differently from the copper pipe. As I was running an interim set-up with 8mm to engine bay (old filter) I very slightly slackened the polyipe connection at the filter to depressurise. It seemed that the pressure had dropped so I went to remove the fitting and as soon as I touched it it shot out and with a bang - unlike copper which has to be dragged out. Now that all my unions are brass, is there a technique for depressurising that avoids that sudden ejection?

Haven't driven it yet (only shunting around on the driveway) to know if the new pipe is the cure for fuel starvation but there's still the dual reducer option but for that increasing the supply pipe size was likely necessary so at least that is now done.

How you guys used to manage with copper is beyond me. Even removing the old copper was aggro and from doing brake pipes in much shorter lengths I know how awkward it is. From one end of the truck to the other and up and across the engine bay must have taken some doing. The polypipe is reasonable to work with - thanks guys for making me aware of it. I could not have done this in copper - no way!
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Brian_H
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Re: Advice please!

#280 Post by Brian_H » Thu Oct 15, 2020 7:15 pm

The easy way to depressurise it, is to shut off the tank (either manual shutoff on the multivalve, or you may be able to get away with disconnecting the rear solenoid/removing the coil from the post, whatever is easier). Then just let it run till it hits low pressure, if you want to be sure give it a few seconds and try switching back again a few times you can be sure its empty.

Easy way for leak checking is either soapy water or leak detector spray applied to anywhere suspect, and look for bubbles. Though you'd normally smell it as well.

the 13/14mm thing might just be to make it easier so you don't need two of the same spanners for the fittings. So you should be able to hold the end in the right place and tighen against the spanner rather than crushing the olive in the compression joint too far.

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