Advice please!

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Gilbertd
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Re: Advice please!

#101 Post by Gilbertd » Wed Apr 01, 2020 6:27 pm

ECU has a permanent live as well as the ignition switched live but it shouldn't drain. Usually way oh installing is to attach the permanent directly to the battery with a 7.5A fuse in it. Find that, pull the fuse and see if the drain goes away. If it does it could be faulty but pretty doubtful as it's working.
96 Saab 900XS, AEB Leo, sold
93 Range Rover 4.2LSE, Lovato LovEco, sold
97 Range Rover 4.0SE, multipoint, sold
98 Ex-Police Range Rover 4.0, AEB Leo, daily motor
96 Range Rover 4.6HSE Ascot, AEB Leo, my spare


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Pinger
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Re: Advice please!

#102 Post by Pinger » Wed Apr 01, 2020 6:42 pm

Thanks Gilbert, I forgot about the permanent live (link to manual very useful - cheers). There's a couple of fuses attached to the AEB ECU. I did pull them and it made no difference and as you say, it is working. That's not saying I got the fuse you are referring to though.
I've traced the fault to the Chevrolet fuse box but nothing exits it unfused - and I've pulled the fuses and relays. Other than, a wire that has been added that appears to be a bona-fide earth via 4 brown wires connected together from an earth tag for a relay. From there they disappear into the loom and possibly re-emerge as 4 black wires terminating in an eyelet that is bolted to the body as an earth. Which doesn't make sense as Chevrolet would have provided earths for the relays or they wouldn't work. More investigation required. (I'll check all the wiring colours from the manual and try and make sense of it. The wiring isn't the prettiest.)

Brian_H
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Re: Advice please!

#103 Post by Brian_H » Wed Apr 01, 2020 8:28 pm

There is a feed directly from the battery in most cases, The Pegaso wiring diagrams show this to be a red and black wire. Its there for keeping the default valve in memory so if you disconnect it, you may lose settings (probabbly will lose settings). Of course this may be taken from somewhere other than the battery itself.

You should be able to unplug the ecu from the loom to prove the same thing though. Just be careful you don't skew the connector too much when you put it back together (don't want to bend pins or short anything out, particually whilst its still live, or pull one of the cables off the battery before disconnecting/reconnecting it if you want to play it safe)

Pinger
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Re: Advice please!

#104 Post by Pinger » Wed Apr 01, 2020 9:02 pm

I went out and looked at the fuses next to the AEB ECU. Two 7.5A fuses and pulling them yesterday made no difference. I'll unplug the ECU tomorrow and the emulators etc - just to be sure they aren't contributing to the problem.
What is causing a great deal of confusion is the earth connection inside the GM (General Motors) fuse box spurred from an earth contact for a relay. The entire car is an earth! Why would someone go inside a fuse box for one? But, I suspect it is part of the LPG installation.
I think I will go back into the fuse box, chop that earth out and reconnect externally. If that rids the fuse box of the drain then the wiring is the problem. Which it must be as said earth within the fuse box isn't contacting anything live positive. What contradicts that is that all wires emanating from the fuse box are fused - and pulling the fuses makes no difference.
I should probably check the myriad aux/ciggy lighter sockets as well given they aren't reliant on the ignition key for power. Tomorrow's another day....

Pinger
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Re: Advice please!

#105 Post by Pinger » Mon Apr 20, 2020 5:07 pm

Gilbertd wrote:
Mon Mar 09, 2020 11:15 am

Image
Dragged up this post as I was checking on what had been said re 'heavy ends' and found your photograph - with a screw missing from a sensor. Maybe (probably) an old photo and now rectified.....

So far I've found the plug I need to remove but not the Allen key to fit what appears to be an Allen bolt. A bit cramped for space so I may disconnect the hard pipe inlet feed so I can invert the reducer. Are there any seals I need to replace if I do that?
I've also found what I suspect is a filter on the bulkhead. To remove the bowl, same question, any seals/gaskets?
TIA.

Gilbertd
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Re: Advice please!

#106 Post by Gilbertd » Mon Apr 20, 2020 5:58 pm

Allen bolt???? You've got two gas outlets on an R90E, one at the top and another directly underneath it at the bottom. It will have a plastic cap on it that you just need to pull off, no plug or Allen bolt involved there. Yes, there will, or at least should, be a filter before the vaporiser. Usually with a hex head on the bottom to unscrew the filter chamber. If you simply unscrew that it will start to come undone then you will be greeted with a sound like someone has just fired a shotgun behind you and a blast of liquid gas will shoot out. You need to drain the gas out of the pipe between the tank and the filter first. Two ways to do this. You can slacken off the pipe going into the filter and allow the gas to bleed out slowly or you can turn off the supply at the tank (either using the manual valve or by disconnecting the power to the tank solenoid) and run teh engine until it runs out of gas.

Nope, the screw is still missing from the sensor and is likely to stay that way. That's the Throttle Position sensor and is held in place by two tiny little M3 screws. The screws are steel, screwed into the alloy throttle body housing, so they have a habit of seizing in the alloy and shearing off flush with the throttle body when you try to unscrew them. As long as both don't seize and shear off, one will still hold it in place (after it's been liberally slobbered in copper grease so it will come out next time) so it doesn't matter.
96 Saab 900XS, AEB Leo, sold
93 Range Rover 4.2LSE, Lovato LovEco, sold
97 Range Rover 4.0SE, multipoint, sold
98 Ex-Police Range Rover 4.0, AEB Leo, daily motor
96 Range Rover 4.6HSE Ascot, AEB Leo, my spare


Proud member of the YCHJCYA2PDTHFH club.

Gilbertd
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Re: Advice please!

#107 Post by Gilbertd » Mon Apr 20, 2020 6:10 pm

This bottom outlet.......

Image
96 Saab 900XS, AEB Leo, sold
93 Range Rover 4.2LSE, Lovato LovEco, sold
97 Range Rover 4.0SE, multipoint, sold
98 Ex-Police Range Rover 4.0, AEB Leo, daily motor
96 Range Rover 4.6HSE Ascot, AEB Leo, my spare


Proud member of the YCHJCYA2PDTHFH club.

Pinger
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Re: Advice please!

#108 Post by Pinger » Mon Apr 20, 2020 6:53 pm

Thanks Gilbert.
Mine is very slightly different. More like the one pictured here >>
https://www.google.com/search?q=omvl+r9 ... _nNe5z253M

with a Phillips screw that just catches the edge of the outlet's flange. I assumed the plug was restrained similarly but with an Allen bolt. Hard to gain access to see properly but as the plug just pulls out - should be easy enough now.
I'll drop the pressure first before opening the bowl.

Lubricants are my line of work and I've nothing good to say about Coppaslip. The oil from it bleeds quickly leaving a dry thickener base behind which then acts as a sponge and sucks every bit of moisture available which then causes corrosion. Any grease but Coppaslip!
Where I'd once slather thick water proof grease on bolts to prevent corrosion (very messy), I've started using underseal on them. Drys well enough not to be messy, keeps wet out, and isn't as rigid it prevents removal. Working well so far.

Gilbertd
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Re: Advice please!

#109 Post by Gilbertd » Mon Apr 20, 2020 7:04 pm

I tend to use a dob from a very old tub of Castrol Graphite grease on most things (particularly spark plugs into alloy heads), or just dunk bolts in old sump oil.....
96 Saab 900XS, AEB Leo, sold
93 Range Rover 4.2LSE, Lovato LovEco, sold
97 Range Rover 4.0SE, multipoint, sold
98 Ex-Police Range Rover 4.0, AEB Leo, daily motor
96 Range Rover 4.6HSE Ascot, AEB Leo, my spare


Proud member of the YCHJCYA2PDTHFH club.

Pinger
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Re: Advice please!

#110 Post by Pinger » Tue Apr 21, 2020 10:35 am

Graphite can promote galvanic corrosion, old sump oil can be acidic (combustion products) - maybe not so much from an LPG fuelled motor though.
Clean fresh grease everytime!

Spark plugs in alloy is the only use for Coppaslip I have - at least its dry (or should be) around the plugs.

Pinger
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Re: Advice please!

#111 Post by Pinger » Tue Apr 21, 2020 3:24 pm

Got some draining done. Plug wouldn't easily come out of reducer so disconnected it (except for water) and inverted and drained (circa 2 table spoons) of gloop). Does that pass for draining the reducer?
Filter on bulkhead wasn't for releasing its bolt so removed pipes and no liquid present - job done?

Assuming the above has covered the draining - reassembly. I see white residue on the thread fittings. What, if anything, should I use on reassembly? Thoughts are thread tape or a dab of grease. But not dry?

Brian_H
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Re: Advice please!

#112 Post by Brian_H » Tue Apr 21, 2020 3:34 pm

If you've got it hot (circulating coolant through it usually enough long as you get it decently warm) then it should be drained, By the bulkhead filter if you mean the one on the solenoid (feed before the reducer - I'd assume thats the only one in most single point systems) they tend to block up with particles of rust etc from the tank. Doesn't tend to be too much of a problem on a tank filled from a pump, more of a problem if its been run on bottles (or filled from them) or if the tank hasn't had a cap on the filler possibly. It might help to post up a photo of it, keep it under 2mb and you should be able to upload it directly to the forum on this thread.

2 table spoons of gloop would seem to be the major problem though, and its probabbly that stuff holding the lower plug in as well.

As far as the threads go, if i've felt it needs thread tape I've used it. Generally speaking those with olives don't need it, so only usually use it on multivalve adaptors personally.

Pinger
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Re: Advice please!

#113 Post by Pinger » Tue Apr 21, 2020 4:02 pm

Thanks Brian_H.
It wasn't at temp as I have the rad fan shroud loose (for access) and other stuff disconnected that would make running the engine difficult/impossible - or by the time I stripped it again everything would be cold. It was in the sun though and the gloop poured easily. I take it the gloop is always on the low pressure side of the reducer? I didn't want to force the plug (see below) and risk breaking it.

I'll take the filter to the vice and see if it will come apart. Just a bit paranoid about breaking anything as I need the car for what is now the weekly essential shop on Saturday as there's no prospect of a home delivery or enlisting help in these times. If it still doesn't part I'll try and gauge that its flowing well enough and if it is, refit.

I hate dry threads! Thread tape seems about right for this. Back to it then. Cheers!

Brian_H
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Re: Advice please!

#114 Post by Brian_H » Tue Apr 21, 2020 4:14 pm

The fact you got that much out suggests it needed doing, typically it will gather there as its a low point, and its where the pressure is reduced as well, allowing the heavy ends to drop out of suspension (liquid lpg is a solvent and will hold the heavy ends in suspension, so the only place you might find them being a problem otherwise is the solenoid coil post as sometimes they build up there). Best to leave the plug in place if it doesn't want to move as you say.

Can't see what you mean by below in reference to the filter though, did you mean to attach a pic?

Pinger
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Re: Advice please!

#115 Post by Pinger » Tue Apr 21, 2020 6:01 pm

Then I am grateful in the extreme to Gilbert I think it was who suggested cleaning it out. I'd never have known to. I think the plug weeps a bit as there is a residue around the area where the reducer is. Going to have a better look tomorrow as I'm doing a bit of engine bay tidying (relocating actuator as well hopefully). Also noticed that there's some gloop inside the hose that carries the actuator so will have a look at that. Be as well pull the solenoid valve for a clean while I'm at it.

No need to post pic of filter. Got it opened and all appears well. Took the filter discs apart and the solenoid and its all clear offering moderate resistance to me blowing through it with the filter elements in place. More tomorrow.

Pinger
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Re: Advice please!

#116 Post by Pinger » Wed Apr 22, 2020 11:43 am

Quick questions.
When I slackened the unions to release pressure - there was only vapour, no liquid. Does that imply a leak allowing line pressure to fall?
When I hook it all back together should I prime the line? If so, can I do this by energising (directly from battery) any of the three solenoids (which will energise then all) after first disconnecting the ECU?
(Given the car's current hesitancy to start on petrol, forcing a start on LPG is my new normal. I fear another weak mixture back fire).
TIA.

Gilbertd
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Re: Advice please!

#117 Post by Gilbertd » Wed Apr 22, 2020 7:36 pm

It'll only come out as liquid if you slacken them a lot, even then it will only be the odd drip, if you only slacken them slightly it will vapourise as it comes out. No need to prime, with around 10 bar behind it, it will fill the pipe in milliseconds.
96 Saab 900XS, AEB Leo, sold
93 Range Rover 4.2LSE, Lovato LovEco, sold
97 Range Rover 4.0SE, multipoint, sold
98 Ex-Police Range Rover 4.0, AEB Leo, daily motor
96 Range Rover 4.6HSE Ascot, AEB Leo, my spare


Proud member of the YCHJCYA2PDTHFH club.

Pinger
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Re: Advice please!

#118 Post by Pinger » Wed Apr 22, 2020 8:16 pm

Thanks Gilbert - appreciated.

Pinger
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Re: Advice please!

#119 Post by Pinger » Fri Apr 24, 2020 4:19 pm

It is with some pleasure I report positive news rather than my usual million and one questions.
After cleaning the gloop out of the reducer it runs a whole lot better. Just had a brief test drive and was switching between LPG and petrol (for comparison) and above 3000 rpm where it was flat before, it now pulls well. Not perfect yet (power occasionally drops out) but a whole lot better and there's still tweaking to do (if needed) via the software.
Somewhat surprised that removing a few tablespoons of gloop could make such a difference and there is no way I'd have known to do that without the advice given here. So, just want to thank everyone here (you know who you are) who has contributed with advice (and shown exceptional patience!) for without you I wouldn't have got this far - thank you.
Still more to do (after more chassis work) so there may well be more questions, but for now, I just wanted to give you a positive update. Cheers!

Gilbertd
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Re: Advice please!

#120 Post by Gilbertd » Fri Apr 24, 2020 7:42 pm

If you were to pull the vapouriser apart and see the size of the gas vapour chamber, you'd realise that a couple of tablespoons is getting on for half the capacity so it will have restricted the amount of gas it can supply at higher loads. What you need to do now, lockdown restrictions permitting, is connect the laptop, sit it in the passenger footwell so you can keep an eye on it, find a longish, straight bit of road, floor the throttle and see what the actuator does. It will probably stay around the default with the lambda sensor flicking between green and red until you reach a certain point in the rev range where the lambda sensor will go permanently lean and the actuator will open up as far as it can go. That shows that you have a further restriction somewhere, your task, should you wish to accept it, is to find out where.....
96 Saab 900XS, AEB Leo, sold
93 Range Rover 4.2LSE, Lovato LovEco, sold
97 Range Rover 4.0SE, multipoint, sold
98 Ex-Police Range Rover 4.0, AEB Leo, daily motor
96 Range Rover 4.6HSE Ascot, AEB Leo, my spare


Proud member of the YCHJCYA2PDTHFH club.

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