Engineering company suggestions for hard valves/seats

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Pinger
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Re: Engineering company suggestions for hard valves/seats

#41 Post by Pinger » Sat Jan 09, 2021 2:29 pm

desauld wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 9:01 pm
So that's where I'm at. I have had very bad luck with easy outs in the past so I don't want to break one in the crank here. But maybe I'm into that level now. Really I need an engine...
Very bad luck.
I suspect you are about right re easy outs and at 'that level now'.
Two things I'd try before going in with the easy outs. One, try hammering on the end of what's left of the bolt to 'shock' the Loctite free. Two, try and find out what best dissolves Loctite. If nothing, then a good penetrant (not WD40) and let it soak. If there was a way of pressuring it in all the better (all I can think of is (assuming the bolt is in a 'blind' hole) drill your crank bolt right through, drill your M12 bolt right through, tap it for a a grease nipple , fit the bolt and squirt solvent/penetrant through the hole before fitting the grease nipple, then pressurise with a grease gun and hope the penetrant is forced between the big bolt's threads and the crank's. Use a tube and hammer (when pressurised) to further add shock. Maybe, just maybe, it might break its hold and allow an easy out to do the rest).

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Re: Engineering company suggestions for hard valves/seats

#42 Post by desauld » Sat Jan 09, 2021 4:25 pm

Pinger wrote:
Sat Jan 09, 2021 2:29 pm
desauld wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 9:01 pm
So that's where I'm at. I have had very bad luck with easy outs in the past so I don't want to break one in the crank here. But maybe I'm into that level now. Really I need an engine...
Very bad luck.
I suspect you are about right re easy outs and at 'that level now'.
Two things I'd try before going in with the easy outs. One, try hammering on the end of what's left of the bolt to 'shock' the Loctite free. Two, try and find out what best dissolves Loctite. If nothing, then a good penetrant (not WD40) and let it soak. If there was a way of pressuring it in all the better (all I can think of is (assuming the bolt is in a 'blind' hole) drill your crank bolt right through, drill your M12 bolt right through, tap it for a a grease nipple , fit the bolt and squirt solvent/penetrant through the hole before fitting the grease nipple, then pressurise with a grease gun and hope the penetrant is forced between the big bolt's threads and the crank's. Use a tube and hammer (when pressurised) to further add shock. Maybe, just maybe, it might break its hold and allow an easy out to do the rest).
Thanks for the support guys and some good suggestions there. The internet says, so how could it be wrong, that thread locker hates acetone and chloroform. I unfortunately am right out of the latter, 🤣 bit have some acetone in the cavity in the crank now behind an M12 bolt to hopefully spread it under pressure around the M16 remains, if that makes sense. I will go back at it tomorrow with propane, a tig torch with way too much tungsten stickout and heat it up as much as I dare. Locktight says over 260 deg c will soften it, so let's see...

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Re: Engineering company suggestions for hard valves/seats

#43 Post by LPGC » Sat Jan 09, 2021 5:42 pm

Very bad luck with it snapping and attempts to get it out so far, wish you better luck on your next attempt.
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Gilbertd
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Re: Engineering company suggestions for hard valves/seats

#44 Post by Gilbertd » Sat Jan 09, 2021 7:46 pm

Not easy to get hold of but if you can find a LH thread tap and bolt, that might be better than an Easy out.
96 Saab 900XS, AEB Leo, sold
93 Range Rover 4.2LSE, Lovato LovEco, sold
97 Range Rover 4.0SE, multipoint, sold
98 Ex-Police Range Rover 4.0, AEB Leo, daily motor
96 Range Rover 4.6HSE Ascot, AEB Leo, my spare


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desauld
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Re: Engineering company suggestions for hard valves/seats

#45 Post by desauld » Sat Jan 09, 2021 8:08 pm

Gilbertd wrote:
Sat Jan 09, 2021 7:46 pm
Not easy to get hold of but if you can find a LH thread tap and bolt, that might be better than an Easy out.
I'm actually thinking of mashing in a no 12 or 14 12 point spline bit. I have had some luck doing this in the past on exhaust and turbo studs.

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Re: Engineering company suggestions for hard valves/seats

#46 Post by Pinger » Sun Jan 10, 2021 10:54 am

desauld wrote:
Sat Jan 09, 2021 4:25 pm

Thanks for the support guys and some good suggestions there. The internet says, so how could it be wrong, that thread locker hates acetone and chloroform. I unfortunately am right out of the latter, 🤣 bit have some acetone in the cavity in the crank now behind an M12 bolt to hopefully spread it under pressure around the M16 remains, if that makes sense. I will go back at it tomorrow with propane, a tig torch with way too much tungsten stickout and heat it up as much as I dare. Locktight says over 260 deg c will soften it, so let's see...
Don't forget shocking it from the front. Hammering on it will push it away from the direction it was pulled when it was tightened.
Good info on the acetone - easily found in nail varnish remover I think.
Hang in there - you can win this one!

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Re: Engineering company suggestions for hard valves/seats

#47 Post by desauld » Sun Jan 10, 2021 7:34 pm

Pinger wrote:
Sun Jan 10, 2021 10:54 am
desauld wrote:
Sat Jan 09, 2021 4:25 pm

Thanks for the support guys and some good suggestions there. The internet says, so how could it be wrong, that thread locker hates acetone and chloroform. I unfortunately am right out of the latter, 🤣 bit have some acetone in the cavity in the crank now behind an M12 bolt to hopefully spread it under pressure around the M16 remains, if that makes sense. I will go back at it tomorrow with propane, a tig torch with way too much tungsten stickout and heat it up as much as I dare. Locktight says over 260 deg c will soften it, so let's see...
Don't forget shocking it from the front. Hammering on it will push it away from the direction it was pulled when it was tightened.
Good info on the acetone - easily found in nail varnish remover I think.
Hang in there - you can win this one!

The fecker is out!

Left it soaking in acetone over night, then heated a M12 bolt up which I had threaded into it so it was red hot right up to the nose of the crank for 10 mins. Then mashed in the spline drive, tightened it a bit first, could feel it start to move, then backed it out. So back to the rest of the job.

I have one head off, and the other almost ready to come off. Not difficult, just plenty to do. Everything looks good. Apart from the general mess. I filled all the ports with thinners and there is very slight weeping past some intake valves, mainly the one with low compression. It's only very little to be fair and a lapping in would allow it to seal.

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Re: Engineering company suggestions for hard valves/seats

#48 Post by desauld » Sun Jan 10, 2021 7:35 pm

Some pics
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Re: Engineering company suggestions for hard valves/seats

#49 Post by desauld » Sun Jan 10, 2021 7:38 pm

Interestingly, the tappets are one piece, and don't have the top part which removes, no wonder I couldn't get it to split! So to adjust the clearance on this engine you have to remove the cams. That are also smaller than the other spares I picked up. Odd.
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Pinger
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Re: Engineering company suggestions for hard valves/seats

#50 Post by Pinger » Mon Jan 11, 2021 9:46 am

desauld wrote:
Sun Jan 10, 2021 7:34 pm
The fecker is out!
Result! Well done that man!

Re one piece tappets - that makes for a very high maintenance engine. On a par with a motorcycle engine.
I think it was yourself that mentioned (it must have been on this thread even if not you) that solid tappets were a Jaguar preference. If Ford were behind it then coming from their background of pushrod V8s with hydraulic tappets, that's a hell of a jump re maintenance requirements.

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Re: Engineering company suggestions for hard valves/seats

#51 Post by Brian_H » Mon Jan 11, 2021 9:57 am

Some Ford engines use the same arrangement for the tappets as that shown. The Duratec ones I think are where that started. The later Zetecs were shimmed. Though those all 4 pot engines obviously.

Well done on getting it out though, acetone a good thing to know.

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Re: Engineering company suggestions for hard valves/seats

#52 Post by Gilbertd » Mon Jan 11, 2021 10:54 am

Pinger wrote:
Mon Jan 11, 2021 9:46 am
Re one piece tappets - that makes for a very high maintenance engine.
Or one where they don't expect you to do any maintenance, just throw it away when it starts to wear out.

Re Acetone, I read somewhere that a 50:50 mix of Acetone and ATF works better than Plus Gas on seized bolts and mentioned this to someone I know who had an engine that had one cylinder open to atmosphere for a number of years and the piston rings had rusted to the bore on one pot. He misheard me and missed the ATF so filled the pot with neat nail varnish remover. After soaking for two days, he was able to turn the engine over!
96 Saab 900XS, AEB Leo, sold
93 Range Rover 4.2LSE, Lovato LovEco, sold
97 Range Rover 4.0SE, multipoint, sold
98 Ex-Police Range Rover 4.0, AEB Leo, daily motor
96 Range Rover 4.6HSE Ascot, AEB Leo, my spare


Proud member of the YCHJCYA2PDTHFH club.

Pinger
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Re: Engineering company suggestions for hard valves/seats

#53 Post by Pinger » Mon Jan 11, 2021 12:44 pm

Brian_H wrote:
Mon Jan 11, 2021 9:57 am
Some Ford engines use the same arrangement for the tappets as that shown. The Duratec ones I think are where that started. The later Zetecs were shimmed. Though those all 4 pot engines obviously.
Not sure is there's a technical reason that stops a hyd tappet being used between a cam lobe and a valve on DOHC valve trains other than adding a lot of height but I can't think of an engine configured so.
Usually rocker arms are employed with the hyd tappet being a pivot point at their ends. But there are myriad factors an engineer considers when selecting valve train configurations. Ease of production assembly (of a built up head) being one where the head bolts must be accessible. Increasingly, overall height for reasons of pedestrian impact protection is a priority - the reason Mercedes moved their cam chains to the rear of the engine. There's a minimum cam chain sprocket diameter dictated by the drive one which in turn is determined by the crank diameter. Easily circumvented on a bike engine where no drives are required at that end of the engine. Not so much when you want to hang a big torsional vibration damper and myriad accessory drives on the nose of your crank.
Brian_H wrote:
Mon Jan 11, 2021 9:57 am
Well done on getting it out though, acetone a good thing to know.
Yep, especially as in nail varnish remover it's easily obtained.

Pinger
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Re: Engineering company suggestions for hard valves/seats

#54 Post by Pinger » Mon Jan 11, 2021 12:53 pm

Gilbertd wrote:
Mon Jan 11, 2021 10:54 am
]Or one where they don't expect you to do any maintenance, just throw it away when it starts to wear out.
In fairness to solid tappets, they tend not to need adjustment - if the valves are made of decent material that is....
Our 'built in obsolescence' these days seems to be electronics. £1700 for an ABS/ESP ECU has effectively written off my smart. An otherwise good and useful little car - infinitely better than taking a bus ride in these Covid times.
Gilbertd wrote:
Mon Jan 11, 2021 10:54 am
Re Acetone, I read somewhere that a 50:50 mix of Acetone and ATF works better than Plus Gas on seized bolts and mentioned this to someone I know who had an engine that had one cylinder open to atmosphere for a number of years and the piston rings had rusted to the bore on one pot. He misheard me and missed the ATF so filled the pot with neat nail varnish remover. After soaking for two days, he was able to turn the engine over!
I've heard some swear by ATF and diesel mixed. It is said that ATF has high detergency but I've not seen evidence - or need. Auto trans don't see dirt like an engine does and a good oil shouldn't be carbonising.

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Re: Engineering company suggestions for hard valves/seats

#55 Post by mgrover » Sat Jan 16, 2021 4:28 pm

ahh i had mine done by mike at autogas. still driving me up the wall with lean trims.

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