Engineering company suggestions for hard valves/seats

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Re: Engineering company suggestions for hard valves/seats

#21 Post by LPGC » Mon Jan 04, 2021 7:48 pm

desauld wrote:
Mon Jan 04, 2021 7:26 pm
Do you have a link to the forum thread with the US cars with the similar issues? My car hasn't overhead, or moved above the center mark in my ownership, and I have done about 20k miles in it, now just under 150k total.
I am writing from a different laptop to the one I found the mention of dropped seats on but I hope to be able to find the link in recently closed web pages on my other laptop and post the link tomorrow. Bear in mind it was just a mention of knowing dropped seats on this engine, nothing like a thorough write up of an actual case of dropped seats.
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Re: Engineering company suggestions for hard valves/seats

#22 Post by Gilbertd » Mon Jan 04, 2021 10:22 pm

desauld wrote:
Mon Jan 04, 2021 7:26 pm
Thanks for the comments guys. It may be possible to do what's been suggested but I believe I need the timing cover off to do that, which involves taking all the accessory drives and brackets etc off the front of the engine. Definitely doable, but not a simple job
Doesn't it have a plug or something on the cover to access the tensioner? Most engines I've worked on with a similar arrangement have a plug you can remove so you can wind the tensioner back without having to take everything off. But I suppose it is a Ford engine so maybe allowing you to work on it without it out of the car and sitting on the floor in front of you isn't something they thought about.

and this https://workshop-manuals.com/landrover/ ... page_1778/ suggests it doesn't......
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Re: Engineering company suggestions for hard valves/seats

#23 Post by desauld » Mon Jan 04, 2021 11:41 pm

Gilbert,

Yea I think the complete timing cover needs to come off, no other access that I can see. The AJ V8 was definitely designed pre ford so clearly Jag weren't too interested in folks working at their engines in a time efficient manner too. But what manufacturer is nowadays?

I did some more testing with the following results.
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So basically the cylinders with poorest compression all have low to no intake clearance. Exhaust clearance is ok. I haven't checked clearance on the other head yet, but compression looks good on all cylinders there.

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Re: Engineering company suggestions for hard valves/seats

#24 Post by Pinger » Tue Jan 05, 2021 10:49 am

Couple of points.
Regarding comments of surprise that any VSR has occurred on inlet valves (vs exhaust) my understanding is that it is inlet valves that a lube system is there to protect. The lube being burned by the time the exhaust valves have exposure to it.

Engine in question - isn't it derived from a Ford engine when Ford took ownership of Jaguar?s
Think it's developed from the Ford Modular series which arrived early 1990s in 4.6litre form with 2-valve per cylinder heads. Followed by 3 and 4 valve version used throughout the USA range of Ford vehicles. Might be worth checking part numbers. There's the outside possibility of new heads being available from the USA at a reasonable price.

Here >> https://www.rockauto.com/en/catalog/for ... +head,5304 is for the 3 valve heads but you get the idea. Rock Auto ship to the UK no problem.

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Re: Engineering company suggestions for hard valves/seats

#25 Post by LPGC » Tue Jan 05, 2021 12:41 pm

This is the link referring to dropped seats https://www.jaguarforums.com/forum/xj-x ... rid-89466/
Pinger wrote:
Tue Jan 05, 2021 10:49 am
Regarding comments of surprise that any VSR has occurred on inlet valves (vs exhaust) my understanding is that it is inlet valves that a lube system is there to protect. The lube being burned by the time the exhaust valves have exposure to it.
Clear to see that lube fluid can lubricate inlet valves but they are also claimed to form a protective coating on exhaust valves. https://flashlube.com/en/company/how-fl ... works.html
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Re: Engineering company suggestions for hard valves/seats

#26 Post by desauld » Tue Jan 05, 2021 1:03 pm

Pinger wrote:
Tue Jan 05, 2021 10:49 am
Couple of points.
Regarding comments of surprise that any VSR has occurred on inlet valves (vs exhaust) my understanding is that it is inlet valves that a lube system is there to protect. The lube being burned by the time the exhaust valves have exposure to it.

Engine in question - isn't it derived from a Ford engine when Ford took ownership of Jaguar?s
Think it's developed from the Ford Modular series which arrived early 1990s in 4.6litre form with 2-valve per cylinder heads. Followed by 3 and 4 valve version used throughout the USA range of Ford vehicles. Might be worth checking part numbers. There's the outside possibility of new heads being available from the USA at a reasonable price.

Here >> https://www.rockauto.com/en/catalog/for ... +head,5304 is for the 3 valve heads but you get the idea. Rock Auto ship to the UK no problem.
Interesting points. I don't know enough about the history of ford and jaguar to say who designed this power plant, and ultimately it probably doesn't matter. The AJ V8 like many other modern engines from ford, Honda, Toyota etc to name a few seem very soft when it comes to valves. The bean counters must of really screwed down on the material specification here to save literally pennies per engine. But that's the modern world with this just in time (just a bit too late often) engineering @!##. Clearly in Germany the bean counters are kept out of the internals of an engine, only causing havoc with such items as plastic coolant flanges etc.

As for the valve protection fluid or valve saver, my understanding is that it's the exhaust valves it's there to provide a degree of protection too. It's designed to burn in such a way to leave an ash/dust/carbon deposit that protects the hot valve, a bit like lead did in leaded fuel. All the TUV test data I have read from tests on this fluid is based on exhaust issues not intake. It might help cool the intake valves slightly, but compared to the copious quantity of petrol that would normally be flowing over an intake valve it hasn't a chance of helping here. Maybe the inlet valves are just too soft?

Has anyone pictures of heads, valves and seats from "soft" manufacturers that have ran on gas?

I found a little USB camera and got some very poor quality pics from within this cylinder with it rotated such that the intake is open. I think I can see the valve is badly worn. Or maybe that's just my interpretation of what I'm seeing. It seems almost like a disk on a stick, as apposed to the shape a valve should be. Can't see anything obvious with the seats, cylinder bore or piston. But due to the quality it would need to be very wrong for me to see it.

Definitely needs the head off.
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Re: Engineering company suggestions for hard valves/seats

#27 Post by desauld » Tue Jan 05, 2021 1:05 pm

Some more terrible pictures.
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Re: Engineering company suggestions for hard valves/seats

#28 Post by Fox vehicles » Tue Jan 05, 2021 1:15 pm

desauld wrote:
Sun Jan 03, 2021 9:08 pm

Well, this is unexpected. I have NEVER considered the possibility of INTAKE valves receding and sticking open. How bazaar! I had to check this a few times, eg physically check where the exhaust was, eg outside of the head, intake in the center of the vee.

I had previously gathered up the proper tools that are ment to allow you to depress the follower bucket by pressing on its rim and then allow you to remove the inner central disk shim to adjust clearance, but I couldn't get the shim out of the bucket due to the stiction of the oil. I tried brake cleaner, a magnet and compressed air, but it wouldn't budge. I then set the thinnest feeler gauge I have on top of the bucket, 0.05 mm and released the tool. I couldn't remove the feeler gauge as it was compressed between the base of the cam and the shim, so literally there is zero valve clearance on the intake.

Has anyone ever had valve issues in intake valves??
On the supercharged engines it is nearly always the inlet valves that suffer and go tight, hardly ever the exhaust as you would expect with more usual vsr. I believe this down to the high intake air temperature, it is not that uncommon for non gas converted R/R s/c to suffer from this, although converting to LPG does seem to speed things up a little, The valve saver does help but it seems to be inevitable that the inlet valves will suffer in the end (in most cases, I have known these engines to be on LPG for high mileage and not have the issue, but as I say I have known petrol only engines to suffer :?: )
Mike at Gas auto centre in Huddersfield, 01484 649100 has done a lot of these rebuilds so maybe worth having a chat with him, he's knowledgeable with the engines and LPG so could well be worth a call.
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Re: Engineering company suggestions for hard valves/seats

#29 Post by LPGC » Tue Jan 05, 2021 2:05 pm

Not related to this problem but the other owner's problem (other forum) mentioned above turned out to be just a melted coilpack.
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Re: Engineering company suggestions for hard valves/seats

#30 Post by dhallworth » Tue Jan 05, 2021 4:02 pm

Hello :)

I'm the owner that Simon and Richard have mentioned. I'm on the Full Fat forum and the P38 Forum with various cars.

I bought a Supercharged RR last week that was on eBay for spares or repair. I spoke to the owner, an LR specialist diagnosed a misfire on 1 cylinder but wouldn't look at the car due to it having LPG installed. The LPG guy he used told him "It'll be valve seat recession without a doubt" without even looking at the car. The price he said he wanted for the car meant it was worth me having a gamble on.

It was delivered to me on Sunday and to my amazement it turns out the coil pack in cylinder 1 was a melted mess!

Image

Image

I replaced that coil with one I'd bought on eBay as a "that might be handy" scenario and thankfully I'm running on 8 cylinders again.

I'm going to do a major service on it so I might do a compression test whilst the plugs are out just so I've got something to reference. It'll be interesting to compare it to the numbers you've posted above. Did you do yours wet or dry? Was the throttle wide open? I just need to figure out which one is the fuel pump relay and I'll have a go. When running now though mine is silky smooth but I've not started it whilst it's properly cold since doing the coil as it's in the workshop now.

David.

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Re: Engineering company suggestions for hard valves/seats

#31 Post by Pinger » Tue Jan 05, 2021 4:24 pm

Fox vehicles wrote:
Tue Jan 05, 2021 1:15 pm


On the supercharged engines it is nearly always the inlet valves that suffer and go tight, hardly ever the exhaust as you would expect with more usual vsr. I believe this down to the high intake air temperature, it is not that uncommon for non gas converted R/R s/c to suffer from this, although converting to LPG does seem to speed things up a little, The valve saver does help but it seems to be inevitable that the inlet valves will suffer in the end (in most cases, I have known these engines to be on LPG for high mileage and not have the issue, but as I say I have known petrol only engines to suffer :?: )
Do supercharged engines run with higher inlet valve spring pressures (to help them close against boost pressure)?
I seem to recall being told by a guy supercharging carbed Yamaha R1 engines (for Minis) that the limit of boost pressure was initially preventing the inlet valves from opening when not required (and then the float chambers collapsing).

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Re: Engineering company suggestions for hard valves/seats

#32 Post by LPGC » Tue Jan 05, 2021 5:39 pm

Pinger wrote:
Tue Jan 05, 2021 4:24 pm
Do supercharged engines run with higher inlet valve spring pressures (to help them close against boost pressure)?
I seem to recall being told by a guy supercharging carbed Yamaha R1 engines (for Minis) that the limit of boost pressure was initially preventing the inlet valves from opening when not required (and then the float chambers collapsing).
Not that you asked me, and I don't actually know lol, but I have heard of stiffer springs used on inlet valves on high boost engines for this reason (not that the supercharger provides high boost). I suppose it wouldn't be too difficult to calculate how much of a difference having a bar or so of boost would make to the force necessary to accelerate the inlet valve and bucket quickly enough to follow the cam from open to closed. Work out the valve area, force of boost acting on that area, find the weight of the valve gubbins, see how much force would be needed to for the valve to follow the cam closing at say 8000rpm (granted not a linear acceleration), see how much difference the extra 20 pounds would make in percentage terms. Expect boost will make most difference when the valve is nearly closed anyway so the real difference will be lower than such fag packet maths would suggest.
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Re: Engineering company suggestions for hard valves/seats

#33 Post by desauld » Tue Jan 05, 2021 11:48 pm

dhallworth wrote:
Tue Jan 05, 2021 4:02 pm
Hello :)

I'm the owner that Simon and Richard have mentioned. I'm on the Full Fat forum and the P38 Forum with various cars.

I bought a Supercharged RR last week that was on eBay for spares or repair. I spoke to the owner, an LR specialist diagnosed a misfire on 1 cylinder but wouldn't look at the car due to it having LPG installed. The LPG guy he used told him "It'll be valve seat recession without a doubt" without even looking at the car. The price he said he wanted for the car meant it was worth me having a gamble on.

It was delivered to me on Sunday and to my amazement it turns out the coil pack in cylinder 1 was a melted mess!

Image

Image

I replaced that coil with one I'd bought on eBay as a "that might be handy" scenario and thankfully I'm running on 8 cylinders again.

I'm going to do a major service on it so I might do a compression test whilst the plugs are out just so I've got something to reference. It'll be interesting to compare it to the numbers you've posted above. Did you do yours wet or dry? Was the throttle wide open? I just need to figure out which one is the fuel pump relay and I'll have a go. When running now though mine is silky smooth but I've not started it whilst it's properly cold since doing the coil as it's in the workshop now.

David.
Hi David. I am glad yours only needed a coil pack to get running. They are a lovely driving big machine and just swallow up miles, and fuel!
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These 3 fuses seem to allow you to crank the engine without fuel or spark. My compression tests where done dry, throttle closed and with ice on the car, so not ideal, but I was only looking for a difference between cylinders, not an exact number. My good bank of cylinders are all mid 9 bar on my gauge. Definitely would be interested in what yours are.

If I where you, or any Jag engined owner, I would do a valve clearance check knowing what I know now. While it's a bit of a chore, it could save you having to pull a head, so well worth doing.

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Re: Engineering company suggestions for hard valves/seats

#34 Post by desauld » Tue Jan 05, 2021 11:54 pm

Fox vehicles wrote:
Tue Jan 05, 2021 1:15 pm
desauld wrote:
Sun Jan 03, 2021 9:08 pm

Well, this is unexpected. I have NEVER considered the possibility of INTAKE valves receding and sticking open. How bazaar! I had to check this a few times, eg physically check where the exhaust was, eg outside of the head, intake in the center of the vee.

I had previously gathered up the proper tools that are ment to allow you to depress the follower bucket by pressing on its rim and then allow you to remove the inner central disk shim to adjust clearance, but I couldn't get the shim out of the bucket due to the stiction of the oil. I tried brake cleaner, a magnet and compressed air, but it wouldn't budge. I then set the thinnest feeler gauge I have on top of the bucket, 0.05 mm and released the tool. I couldn't remove the feeler gauge as it was compressed between the base of the cam and the shim, so literally there is zero valve clearance on the intake.

Has anyone ever had valve issues in intake valves??
On the supercharged engines it is nearly always the inlet valves that suffer and go tight, hardly ever the exhaust as you would expect with more usual vsr. I believe this down to the high intake air temperature, it is not that uncommon for non gas converted R/R s/c to suffer from this, although converting to LPG does seem to speed things up a little, The valve saver does help but it seems to be inevitable that the inlet valves will suffer in the end (in most cases, I have known these engines to be on LPG for high mileage and not have the issue, but as I say I have known petrol only engines to suffer :?: )
Mike at Gas auto centre in Huddersfield, 01484 649100 has done a lot of these rebuilds so maybe worth having a chat with him, he's knowledgeable with the engines and LPG so could well be worth a call.
Mick
Mick, thanks for the advice. It does seem like these engines have a weakness inherent to the valves even on wet fuels then, so I probably have just got unlucky. I would of thought with the modest boost and charge coolers, intake temperatures shouldn't be too high, but clearly the fact that they have fixed tappets any loss of clearance ends up in valves hanging open. I do like hydraulic tappets. They arnt without fault, but I can put up with a noise over this issue.

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Re: Engineering company suggestions for hard valves/seats

#35 Post by Pinger » Wed Jan 06, 2021 10:22 am

LPGC wrote:
Tue Jan 05, 2021 5:39 pm

Not that you asked me, and I don't actually know lol, but I have heard of stiffer springs used on inlet valves on high boost engines for this reason (not that the supercharger provides high boost). I suppose it wouldn't be too difficult to calculate how much of a difference having a bar or so of boost would make to the force necessary to accelerate the inlet valve and bucket quickly enough to follow the cam from open to closed. Work out the valve area, force of boost acting on that area, find the weight of the valve gubbins, see how much force would be needed to for the valve to follow the cam closing at say 8000rpm (granted not a linear acceleration), see how much difference the extra 20 pounds would make in percentage terms. Expect boost will make most difference when the valve is nearly closed anyway so the real difference will be lower than such fag packet maths would suggest.
For a 30mm diameter valve and 1 bar boost the force on the valve is a mere 16lbs. Looking at A.Graham Bell's book he talks of closed valve spring pressures circa 100lbs. Admittedly he is discussing tuned engines and 2 valve/cyl heads and isn't concerning himself with reducing cam train friction to minimise fuel consumption in the manner modern day manufacturers have to but even if closed valve spring pressures were now half of his figure, the additional force to be countered is only an additional 32%.

Got me to thinking what the actual wear mechanism is for VSR. There's the impact force on valve closing as the follower loses contact with the cam as clearance appears. What of the closed cycle? Does expansion and contraction of the valve shuffle it on its seat enough to create wear?

And while we're discussing top end issues related to LPG - do guides and stem seals suffer from prolonged LPG use?

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Re: Engineering company suggestions for hard valves/seats

#36 Post by LPGC » Wed Jan 06, 2021 1:54 pm

And if it's 16lbs at closed it will be less than 16lbs with the valve a few mm off it's seat..?

The valve is also free to rotate so can be rotating a bit as it lands. There'll be all sorts of wear processes going on on either fuel, some to a lesser extent on LPG some to a greater extent. Metal to metal contact will always see wear eventually, good job oil is between bottom end components.

Wouldn't think LPG would negatively effect stems and stem seals.. Port petrol injection may help keep stems cooler than gas vapour and may have some lubrication value but petrol can dilute any thin film of oil.

Probably find we can all offer thoughts and rules of thumbs (as in generally speaking X engine seems to suffer VSR without lube) but don't have any real evidence (which isn't to say rules of thumb or expectations are not correct). If the engine in question had suffered the same problem without lube we might blame lack of lube, if it was run only on petrol we might blame a design problem, might wonder if the engine had ever overheated (case of the dropped seat) or might just think it one-off unlucky.

If it's found that the problem is wear related it begs the question why other valves haven't suffered wear at the same rate, so if it's wear related it could point away from the problem being due to running on LPG (since other cylinders valves haven't worn similarly), or perhaps this cylinder got a leaner mixture than other cylinders, or perhaps it got less lube than other cylinders.

There are easy manual ways to check if any gas injectors flow more/less gas than others, some gas ECUs have built in facility for checking for this automatically.
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Re: Engineering company suggestions for hard valves/seats

#37 Post by desauld » Wed Jan 06, 2021 3:56 pm

Mick,

Thanks for passing contact details for mike from gas autocenter. I had a very good conversation with him today and he is well abreast of this issue and has worked on repairing a few cars with this issue before. He says that this is unfortunately not uncommon and happens even on petrol, always affecting inlet valves. His reasoning is that its a combination of the fact that this is a supercharged engine, running the same valves and seats as the non blower engines, along with poor efficiency charge coolers.

His solution is to keep reshiming the valves as a short term thing, or do it once and fit harder seats with new stock valves. He is quoting me for the head work, so I will see what that looks like. I did get some work done last night, exhausts removed, radiator drained, fan and shroud removed and the intake off as far as the blower. It's likely to take a while to get her stripped, only spending an hour or 2 when I can but I'm committed now.
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Re: Engineering company suggestions for hard valves/seats

#38 Post by desauld » Fri Jan 08, 2021 8:49 pm

So things have gone downhill badly. Very badly.

I got as far as taking the crank bolt out which was tight. 24mm head M16 by the looks of it. Then:
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Re: Engineering company suggestions for hard valves/seats

#39 Post by desauld » Fri Jan 08, 2021 9:01 pm

So, I got the pully off and found the bolt is broke in the crank, about 12mm recessed. You can see it's been in with red locktight. I packed paper around the hole in the timing cover and stared with my box of cobalt drills kept for special occasions. I drilled it out to 10.2mm in as close to the centre as I possibly could. The remaining part of the crank bolt is about 30mm in depth. I then tapped it M12 and got a M12 bolt with a piece of pipe that's 12mm id 16mm od slipped that over the bolt and wound it in as tight as I could into the crankshaft. I then heated the bolt and pipe untill it was starting to glow, setting fire to the crankshaft seal etc in an attempt to weaken the locktight.

But when I loosened the M12 bolt it didn't take the remains of the crank bolt with it.

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So that's where I'm at. I have had very bad luck with easy outs in the past so I don't want to break one in the crank here. But maybe I'm into that level now. Really I need an engine...

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Re: Engineering company suggestions for hard valves/seats

#40 Post by dhallworth » Fri Jan 08, 2021 9:06 pm

Oh shit... that’s not good!

Have a look at spark erosion. A decent machine shop could probably get it out using that but you’d at least need the engine out of the car and potentially the crank out of the engine :(

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