General mapping tips?

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Gilbertd
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Re: General mapping tips?

#21 Post by Gilbertd » Sun Oct 11, 2020 12:31 pm

Usually the only thing that kills coil packs is knackered plugs. I've got a set of 1ZZ-FE coil packs in my lockup......
96 Saab 900XS, AEB Leo, sold
93 Range Rover 4.2LSE, Lovato LovEco, sold
97 Range Rover 4.0SE, multipoint, sold
98 Ex-Police Range Rover 4.0, AEB Leo, daily motor
96 Range Rover 4.6HSE Ascot, AEB Leo, my spare


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Pinger
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Re: General mapping tips?

#22 Post by Pinger » Sun Oct 11, 2020 12:37 pm

A test for coils leaking voltage that I've never ever heard mentioned in the UK but is common place it seems in the USA is to spray them with water from a trigger spray with the engine running. If the engine falters - voltage leak.

More generally, HT failures manifest themselves on throttle opening/under load (when increased in-cylinder pressures make it harder to 'introduce' the spark).

Budgetbond
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Re: General mapping tips?

#23 Post by Budgetbond » Sun Oct 11, 2020 4:31 pm

Righto and cheers Richard was hoping to get down to you if so I'll reward you for your parts and help on here.
I've actually not gone out in my car yet today to confirm last nites misfire, I'm hoping I'm being a bit hasty.
I've changed my fuel gauge and yeah you're both right I think the wires crossed the new gauges pins are different polarity I think seems to be working, the old one seemed to read, but came apart on removal, there are 3 diff screw holes to mount the gauge in is that for fine tuning?
(I've had to do a few cosmetic jobs to my car u don't wanna see it, it's like something futuristic, it gets loads of attention I don't really like it)
I'm just putting a new vaporiser filter in now as a matter of course pre calibration.
Yeah I put new standard ngk plugs in about a month ago, with reduced gaps, (have been getting a lot better petrol mpg but that mite be just my gauges!!)
Coils I swapped they were working, couldn't find a reliable way of differentiating from the working and non working one with my multimeter.
Anyway I'll keep you posted on how it runs in a bit.

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Re: General mapping tips?

#24 Post by Budgetbond » Sun Oct 11, 2020 8:19 pm

Ok, so have taken it out for a drive, v lumpy idling initially but settled down on both petrol and gas, no fault codes, don't think it's my coils or plugs, think it's just a calibrating issue, my cars v loud there's something wrong with the exhaust I know when I tried those pesky injector adapter nozzles and changed my injectors I heated up my cat with all the misfires I had (trying them were my downfall with regards the build really) I've attempted to sortta 'mend' it a bit, and I've either blow n out the remnants of my c converter or I've now got a blowing back box too, not had time to check properly being dark.
I assume it's maybe that that's put the system out of calibration, it seems to run ok if a bit lumpy like its rich or something.

Bit worried being on holiday, mot due when I'm back, want this to go through now after I've done so much to it now to really get into running lpg.

On the positive front my fuel gauge now seems to work at least now anyway!!

Gilbertd
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Re: General mapping tips?

#25 Post by Gilbertd » Sun Oct 11, 2020 8:51 pm

I've got to go to Skeggie one evening this week if it's any help. I can bring the coil packs (and any other bits you might want) if you like.
96 Saab 900XS, AEB Leo, sold
93 Range Rover 4.2LSE, Lovato LovEco, sold
97 Range Rover 4.0SE, multipoint, sold
98 Ex-Police Range Rover 4.0, AEB Leo, daily motor
96 Range Rover 4.6HSE Ascot, AEB Leo, my spare


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Budgetbond
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Re: General mapping tips?

#26 Post by Budgetbond » Sun Oct 11, 2020 9:14 pm

Hey Brilliant Richard thanks v much for that much appreciated, I'll send you a pm, it d be good to meet you too and put a face to that brain of yours too thanks!!
Last edited by Budgetbond on Sun Oct 11, 2020 9:22 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Budgetbond
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Re: General mapping tips?

#27 Post by Budgetbond » Sun Oct 11, 2020 9:21 pm

Anyway just 'felt' my exhaust and it defo must have a big blow in my back-box, I'll double check in daylight I've been trying to 'nurse' that back-box too and thought it was in ok nick and looked ok!! But it is 14 years old now.

So I'm assuming that's put my system out of calibration, but am hoping I can still run around in it, albeit loudly, just for now.

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Re: General mapping tips?

#28 Post by Brian_H » Sun Oct 11, 2020 9:25 pm

I'd try running it on petrol for long enough to be sure you don't have any gas leaking though an injector that should be closed etc, and to let the trims adjust back to more normal levels and see if that helps. A cold start from petrol and a short drive might be enough to prove that.

Blocked cat could be generating the codes as well, particually if its only blocked some of the time (loose bit of cat free to move inside the box but too big to get out the exit hole). Do you have a lack of pressure coming out of the exhaust, or can you see/hear an obvious hole?

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Re: General mapping tips?

#29 Post by Budgetbond » Sun Oct 11, 2020 10:32 pm

Yeah cheers for the tips Brian, am thinking maybe my semi-decintigrated cat, I was hoping I may no longer need hopefully, has caused blockages and the back box to blow, I can't see any holes due to the dark, but I can hear it, sounds like from the back-box and there's no pressure coming out of it.
Am thinking maybe it's just that that's causing the running probs, there s no codes illuminating just a historical pending rich code I don't know when from specifically, and a new exhaust would put it back to running back in spec again?

Gonna try and have a look at the exhaust tommorrow, and running on petrol like you say.

I'll try running on petrol tomoz to re establish trims then see if I can feel all the gas injectors ticking away, thanks.

Itd be easier if I was at home soz internet signals not great on this caravan site either.

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Re: General mapping tips?

#30 Post by Brian_H » Sun Oct 11, 2020 10:48 pm

I've never known the rearmost box to cause running issues, just excessive noise if its leaking. Sounds like you might have had the pipe snap off somewhere along the car if you have nothing coming out of it. But if its gone further up then it might well cause running issues as well.

While you have it apart if you get up that far, you need to clear out the remains of the cat if it is broken like that (at very least the loose bits).

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Re: General mapping tips?

#31 Post by Budgetbond » Sun Oct 11, 2020 11:29 pm

Yeah am sortta thinking the same thing too, I'll have a look tomoz at how bad it is, I'm thinking that the fried cat remnants have blocked up the back box and pipe and fractured it at the entrance, I changed my 02 sensors and tried to clean what was left of it before I came away with a view to getting it running right for calibration on Friday.

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Re: General mapping tips?

#32 Post by Pinger » Mon Oct 12, 2020 9:58 am

I had a cat disintegrate (during an MOT emissions test of all the times for it to happen). It stank. Stank like brakes that have been grossly overheated. Or a clutch burned to oblivion. Can't say all cats to the same when they burn up but if they do, you wouldn't miss it.

Way back in time I had a Capri 1600S (Pinto engine) with an exhaust leak where the pipe passed over the axle. Replacing the rear section made it drive sweeter and improved the mpg so I'd say the entire system can effect running. Probably more so on more modern Japanese cars.

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Re: General mapping tips?

#33 Post by Budgetbond » Mon Oct 12, 2020 1:10 pm

Yeah I've had a quick look this morning and the pipes fractured going into the backbox, it's quite noisy as you can imagine I think it's more this that's affecting the running at mo, I'm a bit at pains what to do now at mo on holiday.
Cutting a long story short on the install I was a bit daunted by drilling the manifold, so knowing I had a spare set of injectors I thought I could clean anyway which I thought would help running, and seeing where I bought my sundries from had the adapter nozzles cheap thought I'd give them a try first, which lead to vac leaks 2 dirty sets of injectors consequently loads of misfires, the cat overheating, there was a slight smell and a bit of breaking up noise a bit, then before I came away thought I could change the 02 sensors and attempt to clean the remnants of the cat out a bit through the orifices.
A catalogue of experimental consequential errors, I am a bit like that in nature and sometimes it costs me!!
I want my guinea pig of an lpg car to last me a bit longer, so I can run an lpg car well long-term. I'm sure there has to be life left in lpg long term in this uncertain world at the mo. I've stayed at 5 caravan parks the last couple of weeks, there's gas bottles everywhere, loads of tanks but not too many stations here, when I look into Skegness bay there's loads of pleasant actually turning wind turbines and an oil rig in the bay, it looks quite unusual for a resort but I like it, I can see the day now when we can't go out, but we could drill into our own ground and extract our own gas, to travel around but not actually be able to associate with anyone else to refuel!!

What car have you got now running on lpg pinger,?

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Re: General mapping tips?

#34 Post by Pinger » Mon Oct 12, 2020 1:53 pm

Budgetbond wrote:
Mon Oct 12, 2020 1:10 pm
Yeah I've had a quick look this morning and the pipes fractured going into the backbox, it's quite noisy as you can imagine I think it's more this that's affecting the running at mo, I'm a bit at pains what to do now at mo on holiday.
A change in cross-sectional area (and an opening is just that) causes a change in behaviour of the sound pulse generated on exhaust valve opening. An opening splits the pulse and half of it returns to the engine with a -ve polarity (suction) and can mess up gas flow (or spectacularly augment it if correctly harnessed to a suitable engine configuration).
Budgetbond wrote:
Mon Oct 12, 2020 1:10 pm
Cutting a long story short on the install I was a bit daunted by drilling the manifold, so knowing I had a spare set of injectors I thought I could clean anyway which I thought would help running, and seeing where I bought my sundries from had the adapter nozzles cheap thought I'd give them a try first, which lead to vac leaks 2 dirty sets of injectors consequently loads of misfires, the cat overheating, there was a slight smell and a bit of breaking up noise a bit, then before I came away thought I could change the 02 sensors and attempt to clean the remnants of the cat out a bit through the orifices.
I'm not totally sold on the idea that a few miss-fires burns up a cat. The cat has to withstand enormous heat flow at WOT and maximum rpm. A few cylinders worth of fuel at idle doesn't real compare to that in my mind. Subjective I know, but I suspect it takes quite a few miss-fire events and at load for the cat to succumb. Mine did after several thousands miles with an oil consumption rate comparable to a 2-stroke (that smart fortwo problem of rubbish oil control rings - compounded by engine management strategies that both conspire to reduce fuelling (and thus octane rating) and retard the ignition timing).
Budgetbond wrote:
Mon Oct 12, 2020 1:10 pm
A catalogue of experimental consequential errors, I am a bit like that in nature and sometimes it costs me!!
'He who never made a mistake never made anything'. It's a good excuse - I use it all the time!
Budgetbond wrote:
Mon Oct 12, 2020 1:10 pm
I want my guinea pig of an lpg car to last me a bit longer, so I can run an lpg car well long-term. I'm sure there has to be life left in lpg long term in this uncertain world at the mo. I've stayed at 5 caravan parks the last couple of weeks, there's gas bottles everywhere, loads of tanks but not too many stations here, when I look into Skegness bay there's loads of pleasant actually turning wind turbines and an oil rig in the bay, it looks quite unusual for a resort but I like it, I can see the day now when we can't go out, but we could drill into our own ground and extract our own gas, to travel around but not actually be able to associate with anyone else to refuel!!
I hope LPG survives as an automotive fuel. In rural Scotland quite a few homes are heated by it where they are deprived mains gas but as there is a push away from gas for home heating - who knows? Heat pumps are expensive and I don't believe the electrical infrastructure is there as yet to support all the electrical aspirations.
Not sure that fracking for gas on such a small island is such a great idea though. Governments promise full transparency but my line of work brings me into contact with those who design, develop, and run fracking tools. The idea that the likes of Halliburton will release a list of the cocktail of chemicals they inject is fanciful at best. Expect to be met with 'proprietary, classified information' as an answer on asking.
Budgetbond wrote:
Mon Oct 12, 2020 1:10 pm
What car have you got now running on lpg pinger,?
My motor running on LPG is a 1999 GMT400 (platform) Chevrolet Suburban C2500 with the 350 (5.7l) Vortec V8. Runs a closed loop mixer system that has been short of top end power since I got it but am working towards sorting out. Both the LPG system and the truck are pretty 'hands-on'. The help here for the LPG side and the same on a USA forum for the truck aspects are invaluable. See below for pic of it and what it replaced (though it's still around, just out of commission currently).
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Budgetbond
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Re: General mapping tips?

#35 Post by Budgetbond » Mon Oct 12, 2020 7:18 pm

Good answer ping, yeah I agree with the cat not quite being as easy to irretrievably damage as is made out too, I've had previous experience with another car as well, I haven't got time at mo cos the signals not great, but before I got the misfires id given my cylinders a piston soak through the injector holes too, to try and combat the common sticking oil rings too, and that compounded the issue of burning that off with a new misfire and I know I heated up my cat, I could feel it. I've found you can take steps to free those rings and help with oil consumption to some degree.
Anyway I need a new back-box I've had it on ramps, don't think it's worth welding, but my car seems to have readjusted and is running ok again, albeit noisily, but it is drivable upto cruising speeds.
So dilemma is do I get my exhaust done in resort (I got a quote for 130 which under the circs is reasonable) and get it calibrated asap or do I drive it home where I've got most of the exhaust parts and probably be able to get a cat too for the same price myself for the mot.

Underneath is pretty solid I've kept it that way and I can't see any other obvious fails.

I'd prefer a better car but I think I'm just going to have to shell out on the lot on this one, it's a good experiment and I think I'm in it for the long term with lpg on this example.

My gas injectors do seem to tick away fairly uniformly, one feels a little quieter, I've felt another set of magic jet injectors which were really quiet, I tried to clean them up slightly and do have a refurb kit, no idea how to do it.

Good thing is I think I've got the fuel gauge sussed, and when I changed my vaporiser filter, I knew about this before, there s a piece of magnetic metal rod in there attached don't know fully what that's for.

I like your answer s and your car pics there ping 2 contrasting motors there I always liked those smart cars for practical city driving when they came out sortta cute beauty and the beast there.
What are you going to do to improve top end performance on your closed loop singlepoint system any ideas yet?

Gilbertd
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Re: General mapping tips?

#36 Post by Gilbertd » Mon Oct 12, 2020 7:37 pm

Don't worry about the cat for the MoT. If tested running on LPG it doesn't need one. It will fail with an exhaust blow though.

The magnet inside the filter is to collect any bits of metal or rust from the tank.

I quite liked the look of the Smart car, or at least the concept behind it, then I drove one.....
96 Saab 900XS, AEB Leo, sold
93 Range Rover 4.2LSE, Lovato LovEco, sold
97 Range Rover 4.0SE, multipoint, sold
98 Ex-Police Range Rover 4.0, AEB Leo, daily motor
96 Range Rover 4.6HSE Ascot, AEB Leo, my spare


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Re: General mapping tips?

#37 Post by LPGC » Mon Oct 12, 2020 10:26 pm

I convert a lot of Nissan Elgrands to LPG. The main issue with Elgrands (petrol or LPG converted) is that they have catalytic convertors in series, 4 in total (2 on each side of the engine) because the engines are V6's. The issue is that front cats break up, usually front cats won't block themselves up but debris from failed front cats will invariably block the entrance to the cat matrix of rear cats. Removal of rear cats (a relatively easy job) will prevent issues from failed front cats in 9/10 of cases of failed front cats. But removal/decore of the problem part which is front cats is a better cure and removal/decore of all 4 cats better still.

Cats usually have a funnel shaped opening (narrow going to wide) and funnel shaped exit (wide going to narrow). If cat internals break up there is the chance of debris blocking the exit (wide to narrow) part, in which case the engine will suffer back pressure problems and may be susceptible to ingesting (past exhaust valves and into cylinders) cat debris that will act as a grinding paste and damage the engine. But in most cases of 'normal' exhaust system design that only has 1 cat per bank of engine cylinders a failed cat won't cause damage to the engine.

We could quickly get into a complicated area talking about exhaust systems and how pulses from the engine/openings/restrictions etc can affect things.

But I agree that a few misfires at low engine loads are unlikely to damage cats. It's worth bearing in mind though that cats don't only see exhaust gas temperatures, they see higher temperatures as the base temp is exhaust temp and they produce more heat as chemical reactions reduce emissions. A cat seeing excess fuel and excess air, as from a misfiring engine, may see hotter temperatures than in none misfire flat out engine operation - they are designed to convert HC + O to CO2 and H2O and convert CO + O to CO2, the catalytic reactions produce heat, there will be a lot more HC and O from a misfiring engine.
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Budgetbond
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Re: General mapping tips?

#38 Post by Budgetbond » Mon Oct 12, 2020 11:06 pm

Yeah thanks I'm hoping that emissions wise is another big advantage of lpg too over petrol.

And lol when the smart cars came out I was actually quite smitten and thought that's gotta be the way of the future, they even did a little coupe version too didn't they, but they don't seem to have endured and cars seem to be bigger nowadays, it's funny how things change and cars really seem to encapsulate that, I was considering getting an early left hooker one at the time, then I came across another lhd car that nobody else wanted and I couldn't resist a bargain it ended up being one of the best cars I ever had, ever since I've looked for left hookers but now they seem to attract a premium for driving on the continent.

Fuels and resources are another thing too like cng and hydrogen cars etc ive always been interested in and should've got involved already.

One thing I don't know about is and have seen are Timing Advance Processors (I think Stag do one eg.) are they for use on EFI systems to advance the timing to extract more power or use on earlier systems?

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Re: General mapping tips?

#39 Post by Budgetbond » Mon Oct 12, 2020 11:14 pm

Good point Simon the early mk3 mr2s with my engine had a similar problem like that too that's made me think a bit that now, good answer.

I could be totally wrong here, but, I've heard that if some petrol cars if they're really well setup and looked after that have been de-catted may not necessarily fail an mot on emissions (although obviously that wouldn't be legal since 1993 or whenever) and also benefit from a less restrictive exhaust, I don't know whether that's true or not I'm just going off heresay there?
Last edited by Budgetbond on Mon Oct 12, 2020 11:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Gilbertd
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Re: General mapping tips?

#40 Post by Gilbertd » Mon Oct 12, 2020 11:25 pm

Which is why I've also got a front cat box for an MR2 that has had the guts bashed out of it. No idea if it is the same as your car though, I have a feeling it isn't.
96 Saab 900XS, AEB Leo, sold
93 Range Rover 4.2LSE, Lovato LovEco, sold
97 Range Rover 4.0SE, multipoint, sold
98 Ex-Police Range Rover 4.0, AEB Leo, daily motor
96 Range Rover 4.6HSE Ascot, AEB Leo, my spare


Proud member of the YCHJCYA2PDTHFH club.

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