General mapping tips?

Message
Author
Budgetbond
New member
Posts: 158
Joined: Wed Jan 29, 2020 10:41 pm

General mapping tips?

#1 Post by Budgetbond » Thu Sep 24, 2020 9:04 pm

Hiya I've recently done an install, set it up ok, managed to auto-calibrate it and change some of the settings. (It seems to be an older fairly simple Esgi2 system the software I've downloaded v3.03 isn't the latest, but seems to run ok on my windows, there are 3 alternative mapps, ones a 'standard' one)

But anyway, I wonder whether anyone's got any general tips on how to mapp a system before I take it to a pro.

I've no idea on how to start 'mapping' or even how to save it.
Could I just drove around normally for the meanwhile with my laptop connected up, what that create mapping points that could then be easily connected up or corrected somehow, at a later date?

Cheers

Brian_H
Intermediate Member
Posts: 1930
Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2012 12:21 pm
Location: Milton Keynes

Re: General mapping tips?

#2 Post by Brian_H » Thu Sep 24, 2020 10:45 pm

Ideally you want something to display your fuel trims (from the car's obd system) and then set it up so the trims show the same on both fuels under any driving conditions using the laptop whilst monitoring the trims. Easy to describe, but theres a bit more to it than the description makes it sound like.

You might be able to get a basic map by using the autocal feature, typically that involves driving under certain conditions which the software will tell you. But you will probabbly want to tweak it a bit further from there.

Your first step would be to setup your pressure and nozzle size - Given its a used kit from a similar vehicle, its probabbly fairly close on these, but would be worth confirming what injectors you have, what size nozzles its got, and what pressure is being shown when running on gas.

Budgetbond
New member
Posts: 158
Joined: Wed Jan 29, 2020 10:41 pm

Re: General mapping tips?

#3 Post by Budgetbond » Fri Sep 25, 2020 2:18 am

cheers Brian. even your description doesnt sound that simple to me at the mo.
so ideally you'd compare readings from an obd scanner and try and adjust with the laptop simultaneously.

Its fairly easy to run autocal, but Ive no idea beyond that for any revs above idle.

Ive still made a note of my original settings, but I think I reset the ecu and wiped the map from the previously slightly higher powered engine version, maybe a bit hastily.

I just want to try and make some initial roads myself if poss, even if its just to learn a bit more, my goal is to try and get it as running as economically on gas as possible long term, thing is too, not all professionals would touch my partic system.

The injectors are magic jet, im not 100% sure of the nozzle size that were on the injectors, ill take another look at the settings and double check the pressure settings and readings to how they were for now too.

cheers for the tips

LPGC
Installer
Posts: 4069
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:01 pm
Location: Yorkshire
Contact:

Re: General mapping tips?

#4 Post by LPGC » Fri Sep 25, 2020 2:39 pm

I've replied to your PM Gerard.

V3.03 software works as well as V4 except the save function seems a lot more likely to crash in v3.03. I like the user interface a bit more in v3.03 than v4 though.

Autocal won't do a good job, such functions generally only work OKish when pinj at idle is somewhere very close to 3ms, ESGI autocal isn't good even compared to most other autocal systems.
Full time LPG installer
Servicing / Diagnostics / Repairs to all systems / DIY conversion kits supplied with thorough tech support
Mid Yorkshire
2 miles A1, 8 miles M62,
http://www.Lpgc.co.uk
Twitter https://twitter.com/AutogasSimon
07816237240

Budgetbond
New member
Posts: 158
Joined: Wed Jan 29, 2020 10:41 pm

Re: General mapping tips?

#5 Post by Budgetbond » Fri Sep 25, 2020 9:04 pm

Hey cheers Simon, the v3.03 software works better on my laptop and seems simpler, so that's what I've been trying to use.

Autocal' s easy to operate and there don't seem to be too many settings at least, and really tbh I only really use my car pretty sedately in the lower revs range so really it's only up to a certain point for me to be accurately mapped, but it d be really good to get it all working to its full potential efficiency.

Can I ask you generally Simon, how different are the systems to mapp generally, are they like night and day or are there some fairly common similarities amongst the various systems?

And once I've had it done properly professionally, are there any other little tips a diy-er could do to keep it that way, maintain or check/look after it, and potential correct or tweak it in the future once it's been done?
(Or once it's set, is it all pretty much set and done then?)

Cheers for your help.

Gilbertd
Advanced Member
Posts: 8543
Joined: Wed Apr 09, 2008 10:00 am
Location: Peterborough

Re: General mapping tips?

#6 Post by Gilbertd » Fri Sep 25, 2020 9:09 pm

Budgetbond wrote:
Fri Sep 25, 2020 9:04 pm
I only really use my car pretty sedately in the lower revs range so really it's only up to a certain point for me to be accurately mapped
Bit pointless having a VVTi then, they only really come into their own above 3,500 rpm when they take off, below that they are as flat as a pancake. Drive it like you stole it (i.e. never let the revs drop below 4,000 rpm and hold it until the red line), that'll soon clear out the cat.
96 Saab 900XS, AEB Leo, sold
93 Range Rover 4.2LSE, Lovato LovEco, sold
97 Range Rover 4.0SE, multipoint, sold
98 Ex-Police Range Rover 4.0, AEB Leo, daily motor
96 Range Rover 4.6HSE Ascot, AEB Leo, my spare


Proud member of the YCHJCYA2PDTHFH club.

LPGC
Installer
Posts: 4069
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:01 pm
Location: Yorkshire
Contact:

Re: General mapping tips?

#7 Post by LPGC » Fri Sep 25, 2020 10:06 pm

Budgetbond wrote:
Fri Sep 25, 2020 9:04 pm
Can I ask you generally Simon...
Once you understand what each setting does they'e mostly very similar to calibrate, with the exception of a few ECU's / systems.

Some firms 'offer' customers a free 1000 mile checkup, this is/was a kind of proviso suggested by a certain trade body but really it's all about allowing the installer a second chance of calibration after they messed things up a bit the first time they calibrated. E.g. An installer's customer has a Mil light come on after 500 miles of having an LPG system so phones the installer, the installer can say 'well bring it back at the 1000 mile 'service/check and we'll look at the problem and do that fine tuning we talked about'. Nobody would be thrilled if they bought a new petrol car and the mil came on in less than 1000 miles and nobody expects a petrol fuel injection to need tuning... ever. If an LPG system's parts are not worn out there is no reason an LPG system should need re-tuning either... so my take on this is that the installer should calibrate the system properly in the first place, including checking correct fuelling during the warm up stage and shortly after switchover to LPG. Once setup properly you shouldn't have to make any adjustments until something breaks, calibration will never break because it never changes. Performance of components can change a little over time (and quite a lot during the first hour or so of running) but if calibration is close enough to correct in the first place the minor changes won't make much difference to fuelling. I don't think there is much excuse for e.g. insisting customers return ever year for a service that includes a tune-up. If customers want to return to me for service (filters change) I will of course check calibration but I'd rather customers just ask me to point them to a supplier of the correct filters. On filters - most LPG systems really go most of their lives on the same liquid phase filter but the easier to change vapour filter will probably get a few more changes. In reality these filters don't do a lot of work despite talk of 'heavy ends' and we could compare the filters situation with a petrol fuel system which will probably not be changed during the entire life of the vehicle... I have installed/fixed/serviced thousands of LPG converted vehicles yet I have only seen a problem I could attribute to state of filters on about 4 vehicles. I regularly 'service' (i.e. fix) installs fitted elsewhere.. they don't really need a service, they need putting right. It's usually possible to put them right while retaining the same filters. But for what filters cost, why not change them anyway lol.
Full time LPG installer
Servicing / Diagnostics / Repairs to all systems / DIY conversion kits supplied with thorough tech support
Mid Yorkshire
2 miles A1, 8 miles M62,
http://www.Lpgc.co.uk
Twitter https://twitter.com/AutogasSimon
07816237240

Budgetbond
New member
Posts: 158
Joined: Wed Jan 29, 2020 10:41 pm

Re: General mapping tips?

#8 Post by Budgetbond » Fri Sep 25, 2020 10:21 pm

Lol yeah I know what u mean Richard, I know it's fairly pointless I think peak torque s about 4800 I think that's when maybe the vvti kicks in which I just thinks when the exhaust valves open for longer more efficiently, it should be used really, I was gonna say I do give it the odd Italian tune up, prob is that's when they use their oil, and they've gotta tendency too, so what can happen or did happen was, even on the later engines, you can set-off on a blast engine to the brim with oil and then halfway through not realising you can run out of oil, you've gotta keep an eye on em,even the later ones, most of the rest of the time they don't use any though with oil changes etc.
Most of my driving s only urban tho.
It does make me think of where performance cars mite go nowadays when this year's supercars are next decades inside laners. I can remember when a car being able to do 100mph was fast, and as a teenager would luv to be able to drive a car with 100hp and 0-60 in less than 10 secs.
I still think lpg s got a good future, let's make the most of it, you're doing a good thing with all your trips Richard, ever considered it in a Caterham thatd be a challenge!!, could you convert one of those things d you think!
Last edited by Budgetbond on Fri Sep 25, 2020 10:35 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Budgetbond
New member
Posts: 158
Joined: Wed Jan 29, 2020 10:41 pm

Re: General mapping tips?

#9 Post by Budgetbond » Fri Sep 25, 2020 10:33 pm

Soz, last message passed in the post, cheers Simon that's reassuring, it'd be good to make the most out of lpg, when mine's set-up properly I may consider in the future a more up to date efficient system.

Gilbertd
Advanced Member
Posts: 8543
Joined: Wed Apr 09, 2008 10:00 am
Location: Peterborough

Re: General mapping tips?

#10 Post by Gilbertd » Fri Sep 25, 2020 10:52 pm

The VVTi kicks in at around 3,400 rpm, floor the throttle at less than that and not a lot happens until you hit that figure and it'll take off. The only reason a later engine will drink oil is if it has been neglected in the past so the oil control ring lube holes are clogging up. If it has been regularly serviced and the correct fully synthetic oil used, then it won't. It's the identical problem to that suffered by the earlier engines, just that if you serviced it by the book it wouldn't happen.

No never considered doing long journey in a Caterham, or even in my Maserati. I can do 1,000 miles in one hit in my Range Rover and get out at the other end needing nothing but a decent cup of coffee and some sleep. Try that in a Caterham and I'd need a wheelchair. Converting a Caterham wouldn't be a problem at all, they use pretty standard Ford engines in the main so not a problem at all. A few used the God-awful K series, but one of them wouldn't be difficult either. One car I did use that would have been nice to convert had it been possible, although it wasn't really necessary. Drove from Nice back to home in a 2017 Audi RS7, 4.0 litre, TFSI V8 (so direct injection) with twin turbos, as standard produced 595 bhp but this one had been de-catted and remapped up to 720 bhp. Top speed was around 180 mph (as part of the remap had been to remove the 155 mph speed limiter) but cruising at a ton it returned 28 mpg, so why bother converting it? I consider that kind of economy perfectly acceptable. I know a guy with a W16 Bentley Continental GT that has been converted though and that runs around 600 bhp......
96 Saab 900XS, AEB Leo, sold
93 Range Rover 4.2LSE, Lovato LovEco, sold
97 Range Rover 4.0SE, multipoint, sold
98 Ex-Police Range Rover 4.0, AEB Leo, daily motor
96 Range Rover 4.6HSE Ascot, AEB Leo, my spare


Proud member of the YCHJCYA2PDTHFH club.

Budgetbond
New member
Posts: 158
Joined: Wed Jan 29, 2020 10:41 pm

Re: General mapping tips?

#11 Post by Budgetbond » Sat Sep 26, 2020 12:23 am

I have to say that sounds pretty impressive Richard, that's a cracking endorsement for your Range Rover of underestimated real importance I get where you're coming from.

And the Audi journey sounded a bit of a hoot, never been in anything with that sort of grunt' that's sort of F1 sort of power isn't it, can you somehow put it into words!!?

Mustve felt like your right foot was hovering over a landmine!!

I suppose as well that's the real advancement nowadays too, horsepower without necessarily the penalties too potentially.

I don't really know the tuning potential for cars on lpg, I've heard of timing advance processors, megasquirt, engines with higher compression ratios being better suited to it, are some engines better suited to it, I've heard smaller capacity engines aren't as efficient as larger ones, are engines made for running on Lpg in the first place and in what ways are they better than petrol engines?

In what/any ways would another better, more modern system work better with my engine?

Gilbertd
Advanced Member
Posts: 8543
Joined: Wed Apr 09, 2008 10:00 am
Location: Peterborough

Re: General mapping tips?

#12 Post by Gilbertd » Sat Sep 26, 2020 3:06 pm

The system you've got isn't old so fitting a different system wouldn't make any appreciable difference. But you have to bear in mind that the LPG system takes it's inputs from the petrol system which will be a compromise between performance, emissions and economy. Ignore the last two and it could be improved upon anyway. That's what re-mappers do, without the constraints put on them by a manufacturer who wants economy figures better than a competitor and the lowest possible emissions they can concentrate on performance. That's where things like Megasquirt come into it, tune it for performance and not the unimportant things. As LPG has a much higher Octane rating than petrol, you could run more ignition advance and a higher compression ratio and get more power too but you'd need the engine to be mapped to take advantage of it. There's some guys in Australia that build engines for dragsters specifically to run on LPG.

A smaller capacity engine will be less efficient that a larger capacity one due to friction between moving parts. You've got the same number of moving parts, each using some of the produced power just to move them, so a 2 litre, 4 cylinder engine will be more efficient than a 1 litre, 4 cylinder engine. Similar frictional losses sapping power but an engine that produces more in the first place. This is why manufacturers have moved away from small capacity, 4 cylinder engines and now produce 1 litre, 3 cylinder engines. Only 75% frictional losses compared with the 4 cylinder version.

That Audi was absolutely mental. You've got 3 selectable settings, Economy, Comfort or Performance and on top of that a normal or Sport mode. In Performance the suspension was lowered 40mm, the damping stiffened, the gear changes (8 speed Tiptronic auto with flappy paddles if you wanted to change manually) were speeded up and the change points altered, the engine mapping was changed for more power and flaps in the exhaust opened up to make it more free flowing (and a lot louder). Put it into Performance and then select Sport and the engine mapping was changed further so it popped and banged and sounded like a bag of nails below 2,000 rpm but then took off. Being an Audi it also had 4 wheel drive so just went where you pointed it. Of all the various performance cars I've driven, it's the only one I've driven where I immediately checked Autotrader to see if I could afford to buy one! I liked it far better than the Bentley Continental GT Speed that I'd had use of a few weeks before and in a completely different league to the Porsche Macan Turbo I'd swapped for the Audi.....

But none of this has any relevance to you mapping your cooking Toyota.
96 Saab 900XS, AEB Leo, sold
93 Range Rover 4.2LSE, Lovato LovEco, sold
97 Range Rover 4.0SE, multipoint, sold
98 Ex-Police Range Rover 4.0, AEB Leo, daily motor
96 Range Rover 4.6HSE Ascot, AEB Leo, my spare


Proud member of the YCHJCYA2PDTHFH club.

Budgetbond
New member
Posts: 158
Joined: Wed Jan 29, 2020 10:41 pm

Re: General mapping tips?

#13 Post by Budgetbond » Sun Sep 27, 2020 8:04 pm

Cheers for the info Richard, ok that's why they use 3cyl's now, I'm overcome with jealousy and envy for you, that Audi sounds incredible mustve been a great buzz and hoot of a drive must be pretty amazing, you've also got access to some other great cars there absolutely brilliant, that's perfection.
My experience of high horsepower cars, has been fairly good but often turned a bit pearish in the end, shouldve gone Lpg then really, hence why I'm now trying to get a buzz out of running an older retro car efficiently and sustainably long term.
Would luv to do what you do though tbh Id be happy with the Range Rover and Maserati they sound fantastic too.
Anyway, I'm going on a long 3 week trip myself tommorrow albeit in Blighty, hope my car survives it.
Car seems to be running better on petrol and gas now anyway, just ran my software again before the trip, checked some of my settings (don't think my fuel gauge is working properly it's voltage seems constant)
Ran another autocal, couldn't access the previous info/files that had been saved from previous attempts.
I learnt a little bit more now how it mite be mapped from what's been said, there are 3 different mapping alternative tabs, 2 of which are 'standard' and similar graphically, one just seems to use a mouse instead of cursor and keys etc, apparently the other offers more precise enhancements apparently.
A pop-up seems to occur for confirmation, "Do you want to unblock the petrol map."
I'm sort of assuming that means do you want to allow new mapping points to be written from commencing driving around on petrol first?
Or something like that?

Anyway I'll keep you posted on how I get on!!

Budgetbond
New member
Posts: 158
Joined: Wed Jan 29, 2020 10:41 pm

Re: General mapping tips?

#14 Post by Budgetbond » Fri Oct 09, 2020 3:27 am

I ve replied to your PM s Simon thanks.

Anyway, my system seems to be running quite well so far now, am in Skegness this week been driving around Lincolnshire for the last 2 weeks.

I seem to be getting about 250 miles per tank so far with about only 35/40 litre s per fill up.

My fuel gauge doesn't seem to be working properly tho, it permanently reads full and gives a constant 4.73 v reading, the tank indicator seems to move ok tho, I wonder if I've connected it's +ve and -ve wires the wrong way round.

I've got a spare gauge so I mite just swap that one in.

Pinger
Member
Posts: 277
Joined: Tue Feb 11, 2020 5:08 pm

Re: General mapping tips?

#15 Post by Pinger » Fri Oct 09, 2020 9:36 am

Budgetbond wrote:
Fri Oct 09, 2020 3:27 am


My fuel gauge doesn't seem to be working properly tho, it permanently reads full and gives a constant 4.73 v reading, the tank indicator seems to move ok tho, I wonder if I've connected it's +ve and -ve wires the wrong way round.
IIRC a gauge will read full if it's signal wire is shorted to earth.
If the -ve terminal on the gauge can find another earth path then possibly you have the connections reversed. If not, possibly a chafed wire earthing - or a goosed gauge!

LPGC
Installer
Posts: 4069
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:01 pm
Location: Yorkshire
Contact:

Re: General mapping tips?

#16 Post by LPGC » Sat Oct 10, 2020 5:42 pm

Pinger wrote:
Fri Oct 09, 2020 9:36 am
IIRC a gauge will read full if it's signal wire is shorted to earth.
It depends on the type of level sender selected in software.

Some of the ESGI level senders (usually supplied with an ESGI ECU, pressure sensor and loom set) use the familiar AEB type level sender white connector plug but the pinout/polarity is reversed and ESGI level senders are polarity sensitive (if an ESGI sender is used with an AEB type sender connecting wire the installer must remember to reverse polarity at the ECU end).
Full time LPG installer
Servicing / Diagnostics / Repairs to all systems / DIY conversion kits supplied with thorough tech support
Mid Yorkshire
2 miles A1, 8 miles M62,
http://www.Lpgc.co.uk
Twitter https://twitter.com/AutogasSimon
07816237240

Budgetbond
New member
Posts: 158
Joined: Wed Jan 29, 2020 10:41 pm

Re: General mapping tips?

#17 Post by Budgetbond » Sun Oct 11, 2020 7:28 am

Thanks Simon and pinger, yeah that makes sense I think I connected the wires up colour coded, but wasn't sure at the time how much difference it'd make.
However I've had a semi disaster, think I mite have spoke too soon thought it was all going so well, think I've developed a misfire (on both petrol and gas) trying to find a caravan in the dark, amongst a sea of identical ones stopping and restarting my car with the lights on at a new caravan park.
Gonna check for pending codes no EML light yet I've gotta couple of spare coils would that be the most likely contender dyou think?

Am thinking I need to get it properly mapped asap and build a stockpile of spare coils touring, I hope this car lasts me now, I was just beginning to enjoy the challenge.

Pinger
Member
Posts: 277
Joined: Tue Feb 11, 2020 5:08 pm

Re: General mapping tips?

#18 Post by Pinger » Sun Oct 11, 2020 10:16 am

Petrol or LPG gauge?
If petrol a short on the wire will show a reading on the gauge when disconnected at the sender.
If LPG - I refer you to LPGC's post!

Budgetbond
New member
Posts: 158
Joined: Wed Jan 29, 2020 10:41 pm

Re: General mapping tips?

#19 Post by Budgetbond » Sun Oct 11, 2020 11:18 am

Thanks ping, the lpg switch constantly shows full at 4.73v I'm thinking like you say I've connected the wires up with the wrong polarity, the actual gauge seems to read right but i ve gotta spare one, so am gonna tinker with that today.
I get the impression that a not fully functioning lpg gauge is something people live with a bit. (Tho I'm not sure whether my petrol gauge readings have been affected too by the mileage)

However, going slightly off-topic to the 'general mapping tips', I think I mite have got a misfire whilst on holiday now!!
Got just a pending code of p0172 too rich at mo,don't know how long that's been pending.

Gonna try my car again today.

Are there any general tips on how to look after your coils, or things not to do (or spark plugs for that matter too) I think they're the most common culprits aren't they, to prevent them from failing?

LPGC
Installer
Posts: 4069
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:01 pm
Location: Yorkshire
Contact:

Re: General mapping tips?

#20 Post by LPGC » Sun Oct 11, 2020 12:22 pm

Coils and plugs aren't things that should be failing all the time.

Coils can last longer if plugs and plug gaps are what the vehicle manufacturer recommends and plugs are in good condition.

If you've got good plugs and good coil packs fitted / recently changed we wouldn't expect them to need attention for a long time.
Full time LPG installer
Servicing / Diagnostics / Repairs to all systems / DIY conversion kits supplied with thorough tech support
Mid Yorkshire
2 miles A1, 8 miles M62,
http://www.Lpgc.co.uk
Twitter https://twitter.com/AutogasSimon
07816237240

Post Reply