Time to do some tuning

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rodstares
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Re: Time to do some tuning

#61 Post by rodstares » Sat Jun 13, 2020 1:20 am

Righto... I got the below screenshots this morning with the engine under load at various RPM. With this map loaded the idle is too low and its missing a bit, running a bit rough in general at any rpm and load. I guess that's because it's running lean as hell with the injector timing set so low? I got a shot at idle on petrol and a shot at idle on lpg for comparison starting points. I was intending to get 1000, 1500 and 2000 rpm under load but the system threw an alarm and switched back to petrol before I could get a shot at 2000 rpm.
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rodstares
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Re: Time to do some tuning

#62 Post by rodstares » Sat Jun 13, 2020 1:24 am

1500rpm.png
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1750rpm.png
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This one is immediately after the alarm and switch back to petrol, not sure if it is of any value but thought I'd include it just in case.
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Thats it for now, I'm off to work for a few weeks tomorrow, no doubt I'll be doing some more fiddling when I get home. Cheers and thanks the advice and education!

Regards,
Rod

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Re: Time to do some tuning

#63 Post by LPGC » Mon Jun 15, 2020 2:46 pm

"With this map loaded the idle is too low and its missing a bit, running a bit rough in general at any rpm and load. I guess that's because it's running lean as hell with the injector timing set so low?".

Yes it seems ginj's for any given pinj are much lower now and since pressure from the reducer is exactly the same the lower ginjs will have leaned the mixture off.

Below I've listed some of the key info from your screenshots showing the lower ginjs.

This is from your previous settings (your posts #55 and #56)
Pinj Ginj Pgas Map
3.56 8.23 1.11 0.29
9.57 21.00 0.97 0.75 lambda voltage = 0.76

This is from your current settings (your posts #61 and #62)
Pinj Ginj Pgas Map
4.85 9.01 1.06 0.44
10.56 17.59 1.04 0.81

The only time lambda voltage wasn't reading too lean running on gas was with earlier settings with pinj at 9.57 ginj 21 with box number 236. With the later settings pinj of 10.56 gives ginj of only 17.59 with box number 163... This kind of shows that pressure compensation isn't working intuitively or the figures I entered in the most recent map (with 1.6 bar reference pressure) would have given similar ginj to the figures in the old map with reference pressure of 1.2 bar.

Upload the previous map I sent you (the one that gave OK results in your post #56) then change the reference pressure from 1.2 to 1.6 bar. This should see it richer than it was before, in which case you'll want to select all numbers on a row (row where the ball is on the table and lambda reading with constant throttle is lean) and decrease by (say) 5% at a time until lambda reads about 0.5v. As you go down the map from top to bottom there should (usuall) only be one peak in numbers if the petrol map is correct and nothing else major is going on we haven't accounted for. There are always little points we haven't fully accounted for and if those points accumulate they can lead to different results than expected. In the case of this install little points would include the unusually high multiplier (numbers in boxes), pressure compensation (already witnessed), temperature compensation.

Enjoy work ;-) Talk again when you're back.

Simon.
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rodstares
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Re: Time to do some tuning

#64 Post by rodstares » Wed Sep 09, 2020 6:44 am

Hi Simon and all,
Well, after a longer than expected absence I'm back and fiddling with my car again :) We are still locked up here in Melbourne and I am sick of house maintenance so back to the car. In the interim the old girl has been running fine with the petrol addition and the last map that was loaded.
Anyway, yesterday I loaded up the map from post number 56 as you mention above, set the gas reference pressure to 1.6 bar and adjusted all the numbers down by 5% until I got the lambda voltage to about .5 volt at idle. This runs fine. Only trouble is I am now back to the lpg cutting out under high load but it has no petrol addition set on this map. Below screen shot is the map I now have running. I wasn't sure if I was meant to do the entire map by 5% each time or just a particular row, I may be misunderstanding the process here.
Regards,
Rod
New Map.png
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Re: Time to do some tuning

#65 Post by rodstares » Wed Sep 09, 2020 6:57 am

Now in this first screenshot below I held my foot on the brake and gave it a bit of gas. The lambda is .8v I then reduced the numbers for that row, did the foot on break thing and now I see about .5v as per the second screenshot. I assume I keep doing this for each row I can until I am getting about .5v across the board.
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Re: Time to do some tuning

#66 Post by rodstares » Wed Sep 09, 2020 7:17 am

A bit more fiddling and I have the lambda at .57v at 2000 rpm, foot on brake method. I am a bit reluctant to go any higher rpm using this method, worried about my transmission. Anyway, does this look like I am heading in the right direction?
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Re: Time to do some tuning

#67 Post by LPGC » Wed Sep 09, 2020 11:06 am

Welcome back Rod.

You're doing the calibration correctly, headed in the right direction.

When you've got correct lambda readings on each row you may need to adjust columns / individual boxes to get mixture correct at various rpms. Mixture / lambda readings may change under various other conditions too such as when gas vapour / reducer temperature are different, if you get calibration seemingly perfect for one set of temperatures you may still want to make a few adjustments to aim for best compromise over the widest range of conditions.

Your pressure and injector combination won't flow enough gas for rich enough fuelling at high rpms and high engine loads, you'll probably want to dial in some petrol addition at some point.
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Re: Time to do some tuning

#68 Post by Fox vehicles » Wed Sep 09, 2020 12:54 pm

Your Tinj gas timings look way to heigh, adjust the nozzel size and pressure until at idle, running on LPG after a good auto cal you have ting gas timings of around 3-4 miliseconds, until you have this at idle you wont acheive a good top end. Once you have this proceed as follows for the fine tuning
After the auto calibration you may have to adjust the map a little,
We do this by looking at the tinj petrol timing when running on petrol at any given load (start with idle) and comparing it to the tinj petrol timing when running on lpg (not the tinj gas timing)
So to start from the beginning,
Run the auto calibration and switch to lpg. Check that the tinj gas timing is around 4 milliseconds (ish) then don’t look at the tinj gas again.
Now switch back to petrol and look at the average tinj petrol timing, let’s say for example its 3.0 milliseconds at idle
Switch to lpg,
Now look again at the tinj petrol timing, it should still be at 3.0 milliseconds (this is just an example number, it could be anything around this number the important thing is it’s the same on either fuel)
If the tinj petrol timing has increased, the engine is running lean
To richen the mixture, high light the idle column (left click the mouse and drag down the area you want to adjust) The column will turn blue. Press enter on the keyboard



In the box put a number, I usually go up in 5’s select % and click ok, the map/fuelling will increase by 5%
Now look at the tinj petrol timing again, it will be lower than it was, check that it has come back down to the same value as it was on petrol. If it’s still higher, repeat the process until it is the same.


Run the car on petrol, check the tinj petrol timing, switch to lpg, compare the reading
If it has decreased it is running rich. Do the same as above but put a value of -5 in the box, select % press ok, check the timing.

To adjust on the road the principle is the same. Ideally have someone drive the car for you. Run on petrol at a set load/speed. Start at say 30mph, then 50, then 70 etc. The timings will jump around quite a bit whilst driving so, running on petrol, take an average at 30,
Switch to LPG look at the timing, is it the same?
To adjust the road map you will do so like this,
This area of the map refers to light/medium load, adjust in the same way as before, as required.
This area of the map refers to medium to high load.

You will notice the top and bottom line of the map has not been adjusted, these areas are referred to as open loop, to adjust the open loop we need to use the reference from the oxygen sensor. Most sensors run at 0-1volt (all post cat sensors are this signal)
To adjust the top line of the map, release the throttle and cost, ’over run’ the oxygen sensor reading should be around 0.2 of a volt (lean, so no wasted fuel)
To adjust the bottom line of the map, drive with wot (wide open throttle or hard load at least) The oxygen sensor reading should be around 0.8volt, rich, but not of the scale rich. Adjust the map in the same way as before but only highlighting the required area.

I can't include the screen shots that are normally on this explanation, but if you have any questions feel free to ask

Hope this makes sense,
Cheers, Mick Bird
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Re: Time to do some tuning

#69 Post by Gilbertd » Wed Sep 09, 2020 1:22 pm

Mick, if you'd started at the beginning, you'd know that his reducer isn't up to supplying the engine (secondhand system installed on a different vehicle) so he's stuck with the pressure/nozzle sizes he's got for the time being. He knows it isn't perfect but getting it running acceptably well is the aim here.
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Re: Time to do some tuning

#70 Post by Fox vehicles » Wed Sep 09, 2020 3:11 pm

Did have quite a read through, but think this may have taken place on a different thread?
Still the same procedure for tuning either way, Ok if the reducer is too small it is, if it is a Bat then it won’t have a adjuster for the pressure, but you can remove the front cover and place a thin washer inside it, this will help to increase the pressure as much as possible. Still need to drill the injector nozzles as much as possible, the internal of a type 34, which these look like, is 2.8mm so no point going any bigger than this. But it will help with reducing the tinj gas at idle, which will in turn help with the top end. Wasn't aware it had come from a different vehicle, but Emer 6cyl systems were never supplied with a Bat reducer as far as I'm aware. If it is the Palladio then a stable 1.4 bar (at idle, map connected) should be possible. If it’s a mix of bits then I guess as you have already said the only other option is petrol addition. Be nice to get the maximum on LPG though, which may be possible with a few adjustments?? :wink:
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Re: Time to do some tuning

#71 Post by Brian_H » Wed Sep 09, 2020 7:21 pm

This thread, would be the one that covered that

viewtopic.php?f=28&t=15711&start=80

from memory it seemed impossible to get a balance of enough pressure without it being too much for injectors to open against.
It is a Emer BAT reducer, so as you say no adjuster, its a case of shimming it to try and compromise. But more info on that thread either way.

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Re: Time to do some tuning

#72 Post by LPGC » Wed Sep 09, 2020 9:31 pm

Rod did shim the reducer on my suggestion, we also confirmed the type of injectors etc and that flow wouldn't be enough at the max pressure the shim'd reducer managed. Rod's worked out that if he fits a shim any wider the reducer pushes 3bar plus (though maybe pressure could be increased with a stiffer spring that doesn't get coil bound).

Different parts would be great but Rod knows the limitations of existing parts, wants to stick with them (at least for now) and we're just helping him make the best of what he's got really.

The car runs an open loop petrol system, no lambda probes. He's added a lambda probe in the exhaust just as an aid to tuning the open loop install.

Mick and I briefly discussed old C systems on the phone today in regards a different subject/thread on this forum... Rod's install would benefit from a C system instead of the N and addition of a lambda probe in the exhaust but there aren't any C systems around these days :roll: and Rod would probably prefer to upgrade the reducer (and maybe injectors) before the electronics if changing any parts at all.
Last edited by LPGC on Thu Sep 10, 2020 10:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Time to do some tuning

#73 Post by rodstares » Thu Sep 10, 2020 1:38 am

Thanks for the feedback gents and yes I am aware (after quite a bit of educating) that my system isn't right for this engine. Ultimately I will replace the reducer, possibly the nozzles and maybe even up the size of the main gas line. Right now however, I am truly stuck, can't even legally take it for a test run without my cover story that I am in transit to my place of exercise. The police here are handcuffing pregnant women and harassing old ladies for being in minor breach of the lockdown rules. Shops are shut, even the pubs are closed! So I am basically tinkering in my driveway.
That last map pic I sent is what I have running now with 10 ms of PA at 10ms and 2500 rpm. This is still switching back to petrol at high load. Would increasing the tinj at the high load parts of the map potentially improve this? or just dial in more petrol?

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Re: Time to do some tuning

#74 Post by LPGC » Thu Sep 10, 2020 9:59 am

Shutting the pubs is the worst bit? Hehe...

One way to adjust the petrol addition figures is to find the minimum RPM at which you can make it switch back to petrol due to low gas pressure (hard switch back to petrol, switch beeps) or the yellow light on the switch flashes (gas injector pulse duration > available window for gas injector duration), set petrol addition to cut-in at 500rpm below that RPM, adjust the petrol addition ms to a high enough level that the car doesn't switch back to petrol and the yellow light on the switch doesn't flash even at full throttle higher rpms.

Another thing to bare in mind is that at higher rpms (say 3000+) when manifold pressure is above around 0.85bar you want to aim for a slightly richer mixture - lambda at nearly 0.9v instead of 0.57v as in your screen shot. Your screen shot is at 2000rpm so the 0.57v reading will be OK for that point in the map.

When tuning an open loop system it's generally better to err on the side of a bit rich than a bit lean in the low/mid load range. You'll probably find that after careful tuning when lambda seems to be doing what you want over most of the map, if you then turn the engine off and come back to it the next day the lambda readings will be different again even when the engine is back up to the same temperature and everything else seems the same. There'll probably be some very different readings during warm-up.
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