Diy fitting?

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LPGC
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Re: Diy fitting?

#161 Post by LPGC » Mon Jul 27, 2020 11:00 pm

Wouldn't it be quite a coincidence that LPG wiring has recently been done using Scotchlocks and now there's a none start situation and the petrol ECU reports failed cam / crank sensors? What did the car run like before any LPG install work was started? If it ran OK I suggest you've messed wiring up, if it didn't run OK it would have been a good idea to sort it before beginning the LPG install as so to avoid complicating any diagnosis process.

Petrol injector wiring is always under most load when running on petrol (13>16 ohm petrol injector resistance nominally) compared to running on LPG (LPG ECU nominal 40Ohm load on petrol injector circuits via emulation).

No installer ever connects the LPG ECU's ignition on wire to injector 1, it's just not done, not even considering the injector live wire is usually common to all injectors on the same bank, all sorts of problems can ensue if it is. The funny thing is the petrol ECU may not see cylinder 1 as logical cylinder 1...

Because of the above (electrical loads comment) if the car ran well on petrol you could almost discount wiring as the source of most of the problems... unless the ESGI ECU has a broken internal relay.

ESGI has limited self diagnostic capabilities, it may beep if pressure / temp readings are out of viable range or if there's no petrol injector signal or gas injector electrical resistance is out of spec.. that's about it's limit for OBD, All systems beep if pressure is below a presumed or set (in software) minimum. Some ESGI feature a service interval beep.

When setting the fuel gauge usual ideal settings are 0.2V away from completely empty and around 1.3V from completely full. The difference between empty and 1/5 tank is usually smaller than voltage difference between 4/5 full and full tank with a progressive difference in voltage for LEDs between. E.g might expect 0.6V between empty and 1/5, 0.8V between 1/5 and 2/5, 1v between 2/5 and 3/5 v, etc. Depends on the tank design (0deg / 30deg / one of the 4 hole designs) and level sender spec. ESGI level sensors are not linear, they don't have a voltage divider strip but contain a set of resistors, so readings from them can be more 'jumpy' and less progressive. But now we're talking about setting the level gauge calibration while you've got a car that won't even start...
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Brian_H
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Re: Diy fitting?

#162 Post by Brian_H » Mon Jul 27, 2020 11:19 pm

Vapouriser wise (to answer the question I missed before) it depends if you can get the old unit to come apart. Some will unbolt quite easily, others seem to corrode together and can cause a headache. Simon would be better to answer on the injectors question.

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Re: Diy fitting?

#163 Post by LPGC » Tue Jul 28, 2020 11:59 am

It is easy to refurb injectors but a refurbed injector isn't a new one and for the difference in cost between new and refurb kit (and time spent refurbing - and in some cases potential to mess up the refurb) might as well buy new imho.

Don't mess with the reducer unless it's broke. If there's no gas coming out of the vacuum port and it's supplying gas at the correct pressure, in what way is it broke?

If you get the car running well on gas during cruise conditions but it runs poorly during acceleration the problem may be related to extra injection. ESGI doesn't feature extra injection filtering, this can be a problem on installs where the engine does feature extra injection. Identify whether the engine features extra injection - if you ever see pinj readings momentarily drop to sub 1.5ms during blipping the throttle or during hard acceleration going up through the gears it points to extra injection. There is a workaround in ESGI, using type 2 calibration you can edit the map for every point for 0.1ms to 1.2ms (12 dots) to multiplier of 0. This isn't quite the same as extra injection filtering but can give similar results to extra injection filtering.
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Budgetbond
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Re: Diy fitting?

#164 Post by Budgetbond » Wed Jul 29, 2020 12:39 am

Hiya Simon, sorry the cars running back ok now on petrol after cleaning the plugs, changing the coils and replacing a blown fuse, which must've caused the misfire then non starting, I've disconnected the gas system for now, until my new ngk copper plugs arrive which I'll prolly reduce the gap on from 1.1mms to 0.8mm?
I'll try and pick the best coils with the lowest resistance readings to stick back in.
Car was running ok on petrol before the install but the plugs were coming up to 20k and they were in a far worse state than I thought they would be.
Car was still running on gas okish.
I know it'll need calibrating again on gas I reset it attempting to fix it.
Tbh I'm also going to change the air filter, clean maf, and 02 sensors too as soon as I get the chance.
I'm trying to ascertain a few things cos this is what I want to do for the longterm.

Tbh when I first ran it on gas I wasn't even expecting it to work to be honest, so my electrical connections were a bit more temporary because I didn't know whether I'd made the right ones initially, I've rectified some of that but aim to do more.
I'll keep you posted on how it's running when I reconnect it, I think and assume I've got all the electrical connections connected the right way round.

With regards my rpm signal connected to the coil wire underneath that blue 'hump ' in the photo you spotted.( Hiding the temporary scotchlok!!)
Can you see or think of a better way/place to connect that rpm wire?

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Re: Diy fitting?

#165 Post by Budgetbond » Wed Jul 29, 2020 12:54 am

And when you say above, no installer connects the positive Lpg ecu wire to injector no. 1, ( I don't actually know where my positive injector wires connected to because my kit came from a bundle from another similar car with the loom still attached to it, I just severed the wires from the old loom and colour coded connected them up to the same colour wires from my loom when id unscathed it) so I'm assuming the positive wire was already connected to an injector wire within my bundle) so I've no idea which injector my lpg ecu gets the positive signal from.

But why is it not a good idea to connect it up to no1 and do you mean no 1, lpg injector or numbered no 1 petrol injector on the car?

Sorry, I know it's a bit confusing!!?

And thanks Simon, keep doing what you're doing generally, youre an icon.

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Re: Diy fitting?

#166 Post by Budgetbond » Sat Aug 15, 2020 12:39 am

apols not updated for a while still been following site, nothing to report but been back running fine on petrol and gas now after putting new reduced gapped plugs switching the coils, cleaning maf throttle body and iacvand reinstalling airbox and new panel filter am just waiting to see if i can get my o2 sensors off and cat cleaned cos Ive had that much unburnt fuel going through from misfires before resetting the ecu and re-auto calibrating, and ill keep you guys in the pic then

cheers

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Re: Diy fitting?

#167 Post by Gilbertd » Sat Aug 15, 2020 10:37 am

Have you got a code reader that can do live data? If you have look at the output from the pre and post cat lambda sensors. Pre should be changing between around 0.1 and 1.0 V while the post cat sensor shows how well the cat is working. A figure around 0.5V means it's spot on, anything above that means the cat efficiency is down. If too high you will get a cat efficiency error logged and the MIL on. If you've got not error code, just drive it, if you have a bottle of Cataclean in the fuel may be all that it needs. Might be worth it even if you haven't got the error code.
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Budgetbond
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Re: Diy fitting?

#168 Post by Budgetbond » Sat Aug 15, 2020 11:28 am

Hey cheers Richard hope you've been doing ok that's a great spot on explanation/suggestion, I've been putting some acetone/xylene thinners as cataclean substitute in my petrol in the meanwhile and I've got the lambda sockets I was gonna try just releasing the trolley jack onto the attached breaker bar to see if the weight of the car would shift em, yours sounds an easier idea first!!

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Re: Diy fitting?

#169 Post by Budgetbond » Sun Aug 23, 2020 1:54 am

I've got a feeling I've overheated and damaged at least some of my catalyst whilst trying to get it to run with misfires etc whilst changing my injectors etc ( I hasten to add this shouldn't have occurred if it was properly set up)

I'm not getting any P0420 codes or anything and it's running great now on petrol but my post cat 02 sensor voltages are fluctuating just as much as my pre cat.

Anyway I aim to keep running it with cataclean etc and attempt to clean it out a bit when I change my 02 sensors and hope come the mot it's running well enough on gas emissions wise for another year.

Anyway, I'm going to redo my brown rpm signal wire properly and re autocalibrate it again.

I was just wondering I think I may have read somewhere is it better to not connect this to the cylinder 1 coil wire or will any coil do (and if so any partic reason)?

And on a multipoint system does the brown wire take a positive live ignition signal, provide the timing or just provide the revs readout cos I think I've also read somewhere that sometimes it isn't necessary (and I assume you can't just wrap the ht wire around it like on older systems!!)

And I'm due to be taking a long trip soon are there any other ways you can try and prevent a coil from failing bar putting new and gapped plugs in?

(And also just a future aside, I've read about timing advance emulators (stag ones actually) can they be used on any multipoint systems to increase efficiency at all?)

Thanks and hope you've all been doing ok.

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Re: Diy fitting?

#170 Post by Gilbertd » Sun Aug 23, 2020 9:25 am

Brown wire needs to take the pulses, not the live feed, or it won't run on gas as the system won't know the engine is turning. It won't make any difference which cylinder you connect to, they are all firing (you hope). As long as the MIL isn't on when you take it for MoT, don't worry about the emissions, take it in running on gas, tell them it is running on gas so they test it on gas and, unless your mapping is really miles out, it will pass. If tested on gas you don't even need there to be a cat there at all. Coils fail, it's a fact of life with the coil on plugs, whether running on LPG or petrol, and the easiest way to kill them is running old plugs so they should be changed when the book says.
96 Saab 900XS, AEB Leo, sold
93 Range Rover 4.2LSE, Lovato LovEco, sold
97 Range Rover 4.0SE, multipoint, sold
98 Ex-Police Range Rover 4.0, AEB Leo, daily motor
96 Range Rover 4.6HSE Ascot, AEB Leo, my spare


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Re: Diy fitting?

#171 Post by LPGC » Sun Aug 23, 2020 9:37 pm

On a sequential system there's always a wire for ignition on (usually connected to an injector positive) and there might be a different wire (usually brown) for rpm detection that should be connected to the pulsing wire on a coil as Gilbert/Brian said. Whether or not such rpm detection affects fuelling depends on the LPG ECU. Iirc your ECU is ESGI? With Esgi correct or incorrect reading of rpm won't affect fuelling but there has to be something like correct reading of rpm or the system might not switch to gas or might switch to petrol if rpm reads low enough. For intents and purposes an rpm 'pulse' is seen as occurring when the voltage on the detection wire tips above/below a certain threshold which is usually around 2.5v, the waveform shape doesn't effect the reading. It's easy enough to connect all wires up properly including the ign on and rpm detection wires. Installers don't connect ignition or rpm wires to cylinder 1 because on a very small minority of vehicles doing so can cause problems but you're very unlikely to have an effected vehicle (where connecting these wires to cyl1 would cause a problem), effected vehicles are more often Rover V6's, Mopar V8's, Honda 4 pots, and vehicles that have low resistance injectors or need additional injector electrical emulation.

To have a failed cat is one thing, to have a blocked cat (perhaps due to failure) is another. If you have a blocked cat you'll need to unblock it. I wouldn't waste any more money on potions such as cataclean.. I've done thousands of installs, never used cataclean and never would.
Last edited by LPGC on Mon Aug 24, 2020 12:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Brian_H
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Re: Diy fitting?

#172 Post by Brian_H » Sun Aug 23, 2020 9:57 pm

FYI rattling sounds might be an indication of a possible blocked cat, particually if they are new sounds that weren't there before.

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Re: Diy fitting?

#173 Post by Budgetbond » Mon Aug 24, 2020 1:07 am

Thanks for that Simon so yeah as I thought I'd heard you say previously ideally on some cars you try not to make the +/rpm connections to no1 cylinder that's handy to know anyway.

And yeah Brian and Richard, I've got pretty good reason to suspect my cats suffered some damage, bear in mind I've had to deal with quite a lot of misfires and thus unburnt fuel exiting for a while, at no fault of running a well set-up Lpg system I hasten to add, but as Richard well pointed out that is now handily not a major concern now running lpg.

I had this idea I mite try of attempting to clean the cat internals a bit through the exit holes of removed 02 sensors, I'll let you know if this seems to make any difference as and when I get round to this.

And yeah 'cataclean' is generally a mix of iso propol alcohol, acetone and xylene paint thinners ie. just higher up the flash scale of petrol, in various conc 's, and using them just does as much cleaning out the engine/fuel/cylinder passages etc to try and improve emissions as much as substances can clean the cat out post combustion.

(Tommorrow I aim to re-do my rpm signal wire once and for all properly I know it's still not perfect and I've got quite a long journey coming up I don't want to blow anymore coils on!!)

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Re: Diy fitting?

#174 Post by Budgetbond » Tue Sep 15, 2020 10:18 pm

Just thought I'd update a little bit more, I've still been following the site, am a bit of a 'slowcoach' on things but hoping Lpg will be a long term thing for me.
Anyway, I've actually finally soldered up my rpm connection properly, well I hope so, it feels pretty solid, a lot more than the temporary scotchlok!! And I've tried to protect the joint a bit.
So now, it seems to be running ok but think it needs a proper calibration, I think I've deleted my previous map and sort of had a try at mapping lol, that was like sticking the donkeys tail blindfolded and masked into an Ordnance Survey!!
But firstly I've now got to the point where I've got to make my first fill-up of lpg, which am gonna attempt tommorrow, so a massive fingers crossed, but I've found a local cheap autogas supplier so I'm hoping they'll sort of may be oversee it with me!!
My fuel gauge lights and settings don't seem to work at all, is this hugely important, I believe it's quite common?
Do the voltage settings correspond to the readings for the separate leds to light up when it's full/half/empty etc?

And I confess, when I got a low Lpg pressure warning I did change some pressure readings in the settings, one was a minimum pressure figure, I think that should be set at the minimum slider scale, the other I did move to about 139 bar or something is that going to affect the injection times or state of tune?

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Re: Diy fitting?

#175 Post by Brian_H » Tue Sep 15, 2020 10:30 pm

The minimum pressure setting effects when it switches back to petrol (due to low pressure - ie empty tank). I would guess the other setting is your reference pressure, which is what it bases the map on. Ideally that would be the same as the pressure seen by the sensor with a full (or at least partly full) tank and normal settings with the vapouriser warmed up. The ecu will compensate/adjust the timings based on that figure, so if it doesn't match the actual figure shown, you have something going on behind the scenes that you can't see effectively.

I'd guess you mean 1.39 bar? What do you have the minimum set on now and what is your normal pressure. Simon might give you some idea where to set it, but if your going at 1.39 bar for reference pressure, I'd guess around half of that to be where to set the min at (0.7 bar). Might need to be slightly higher if your close to the max time you can have on injector timings, though you might be able to compensate for that in other ways too.

Gauge will need calibrating, but they do fail as well, both wiring issues and they can fail with age/exposure to moisture. Yes the voltage settings relate to that (typically its a set of 4 sliders to set the various levels). If you see the voltage changing as the tank empties, then you should be able to do something to correct it. If it stays the same (or randomly jumps all over the place) you have some sort of fault there. Maybe parts, maybe wiring issue. First test there is a multimeter across the pins of the sender and move the pointer using a screwdriver (take it off the tank for that). If it changes as the pointer moves, then some sort of wiring problem is your issue.

It won't matter as such (won't stop it running or switching) but it can be annoying that it doesn't work.

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Re: Diy fitting?

#176 Post by Budgetbond » Thu Sep 17, 2020 11:30 pm

So anyway, went to fill up for the first time yesterday but unfortunately I hadn't done it well enough properly, the kink in my polypipe despite manipulation just was nt letting anymore gas in and this mu stve caused a slight leak at the filler end too.
Anyway, I had another go with some other parts I d since gathered and now it's on sturdy enough, and took my first fill up, only took 35l tho, maybe it wasn't completely empty due to my changed pressure readings? I don't know but also thankfully managed to find another handy source of supply that's only 50p per litre, so that's a bonus.
The fuel gauge does seem to actually work/move on the tank, the wiring I bought new on it so I think I'll have to change the settings on that and maybe a couple of other things, and try to calibrate it.

Car seems to be running well on petrol and gas ok for now, but I've got a long journey ahead of me and then my mot s due, so I'm having to keep my fingers crossed on that.

50p per litre equates to about 44% the average price of petrol at the mo, I'm figuring that even with my not v high milage, spending approx £25pw/£100pm on petrol, it should make a saving of £600 per year, which isn't to be sniffed at.

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Re: Diy fitting?

#177 Post by ukfoot » Tue Sep 22, 2020 9:22 pm

Man dont do this .... this can be so dangerous
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Gilbertd
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Re: Diy fitting?

#178 Post by Gilbertd » Tue Sep 22, 2020 9:26 pm

Says who? With a proper kit and a copy of the code of practice any half decent DIYer can do a far better job than some of the so called pros.....
96 Saab 900XS, AEB Leo, sold
93 Range Rover 4.2LSE, Lovato LovEco, sold
97 Range Rover 4.0SE, multipoint, sold
98 Ex-Police Range Rover 4.0, AEB Leo, daily motor
96 Range Rover 4.6HSE Ascot, AEB Leo, my spare


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Budgetbond
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Re: Diy fitting?

#179 Post by Budgetbond » Wed Sep 23, 2020 3:31 am

Thanks Richard, my car seems to be running quite well on Lpg and petrol now (touch wood hope I haven't spoke too soon cos I've got a long run ahead of me over the next few weeks, then it's mot), I've had to spend a lot of time research and enthusiasm to do this, thanks to the clever honourable blokes on here, I have looked at quite a few installs on cars with the same engine and mine looks up there with the best of em.
But it's taken time and the fact that I saw my car as an expendable guinea pig, but I don't want to have to do it all again soon!!!
My installs fairly neat, fairly secure, smooth short pipes, plumbed in well, pipes and injection point v close.
When I completed the electrical connections up properly and permanently, it seemed to make a big difference.
Massive upsides, with all the work I've done, I've also tried to clean up my 02 sensors and cat as well, even my petrol mpg has gone through the roof, let alone on gas. I may be able to get the equivalent of 100+ mpg on a steady run now. (Sorry, am a bit of a geek in that respect)
All I have to do now, is run a bit more gas through it, then change my filter, and get it decently mapped and poss change a couple of settings.
So with regards attempting mapping, if I just drove round normally for a while over a good few journeys with my laptop plugged into it, would this by itself create a good few mapping points I could then try and figure out how to correct or join up in the future?

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Re: Diy fitting?

#180 Post by Brian_H » Thu Sep 24, 2020 10:50 pm

Budgetbond wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 11:30 pm
So anyway, went to fill up for the first time yesterday but unfortunately I hadn't done it well enough properly, the kink in my polypipe despite manipulation just was nt letting anymore gas in and this mu stve caused a slight leak at the filler end too.
Meant to say when you posted this before, it shouldn't leak even if the pipe is blocked, as thats exactly the same as if the tank is full. You can buy different angles for the polypipe ends, and might get better luck with some of the angled ones, but you'd have to look at whats available and what might help in your particular case.

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