Diy fitting?

Message
Author
Budgetbond
New member
Posts: 158
Joined: Wed Jan 29, 2020 10:41 pm

Re: Diy fitting?

#121 Post by Budgetbond » Thu May 21, 2020 11:20 pm

Thanks Brian those connectors look pretty good and easy to use so they sort of solder themselves, I haven't actually soldered anything before tho I've got a gas powered one now, so that's handy that is, how or what do you use to 'tee' in wires any partic techniques you use there?

I think maybe in the future, I may try and optimise my gas injection points I presume ideally you'd buy and install nozzles that extend as far as poss into the inlet manifold allied to as short as poss rubber pipes I presume?

Budgetbond
New member
Posts: 158
Joined: Wed Jan 29, 2020 10:41 pm

Re: Diy fitting?

#122 Post by Budgetbond » Thu May 21, 2020 11:30 pm

Hiya Richard yeah that's right at mo I'm just really looking for efficiency on Lpg do they increase that at all or just allow more power potential and can they be incorporated or fitted to any of the systems?

I was just really still gonna rely on petrol for any occasional performance say above peak torque post 4500 rpm for example, but if this works out for me I maybe more inclined in the future to get another car with more hp in the future and do more miles in that.

(Although actually I'm the sort of person who'd be more likely to put a sticker on my car saying 'powered by gas 120mpg@56mph/4300 rpm' rather than 'triple turbo 0-60 in X ms!! etc' lol but a combo of the two would be nice)
Last edited by Budgetbond on Thu May 21, 2020 11:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Brian_H
Intermediate Member
Posts: 1934
Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2012 12:21 pm
Location: Milton Keynes

Re: Diy fitting?

#123 Post by Brian_H » Thu May 21, 2020 11:48 pm

Budgetbond wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 11:20 pm
Thanks Brian those connectors look pretty good and easy to use so they sort of solder themselves, I haven't actually soldered anything before tho I've got a gas powered one now, so that's handy that is, how or what do you use to 'tee' in wires any partic techniques you use there?

I think maybe in the future, I may try and optimise my gas injection points I presume ideally you'd buy and install nozzles that extend as far as poss into the inlet manifold allied to as short as poss rubber pipes I presume?
T wires just put two into one end, and one out of the other (I cut the wire you want to T and then rejoin it with the extra one tagged onto it). They aren't perfect and take a bit of practice to get to work properly. I tend to solder the wires together with one already threaded in place. Though I think they are supposed to be used on wires just twisted together without solder already on them as results with soldered wires seem a bit random (sometimes work well, other times end up with solder leaking out which isn't what you want!). I've not used that particular brand of them before, but those might work a bit better anyway. You need to use a heat source to shrink/melt them, if you have a jet type tip on the iron or one that has a little reflector on the end of it (rather than a soldering tip) thats what you'd use for those.

The manifolds I've worked on generally give very few options for where you get get nozzles into, mostly due to other stuff around them being in the way.

Budgetbond
New member
Posts: 158
Joined: Wed Jan 29, 2020 10:41 pm

Re: Diy fitting?

#124 Post by Budgetbond » Thu May 21, 2020 11:57 pm

Yeah that's a good idea thanks Brian, I've read about 'straws' are they not universally/easily usable but can you not get or use nozzles that extend into the other side of the manifolds further at all to get closer proximity and/or does that actually indeed make much more difference to efficiency running on gas at all?

Gilbertd
Advanced Member
Posts: 8547
Joined: Wed Apr 09, 2008 10:00 am
Location: Peterborough

Re: Diy fitting?

#125 Post by Gilbertd » Fri May 22, 2020 10:11 am

You only need straws if you can't put the nozzles anywhere near where the gas wants to be. If you can get the nozzles next to the petrol injectors, then put them there and no need for straws. They don't need to protrude into the manifold far, look at how far the petrol injectors protrude.

Why rely on petrol at peak torque? Peak torque will be at the same revs and as long as you've calibrated the LPG system properly they'll be no difference in power to running on petrol.
96 Saab 900XS, AEB Leo, sold
93 Range Rover 4.2LSE, Lovato LovEco, sold
97 Range Rover 4.0SE, multipoint, sold
98 Ex-Police Range Rover 4.0, AEB Leo, daily motor
96 Range Rover 4.6HSE Ascot, AEB Leo, my spare


Proud member of the YCHJCYA2PDTHFH club.

Budgetbond
New member
Posts: 158
Joined: Wed Jan 29, 2020 10:41 pm

Re: Diy fitting?

#126 Post by Budgetbond » Mon Jul 13, 2020 2:49 pm

Well I'm pleased to report (well completely flabberghasted tbh) that I actually managed to turn on my gas tap yesterday and start my car for the first time after finally completing my conversion (it's hardly been a 1 day conversion!!!) and hey presto, no I'm going to say it again hey unbelievably presto, it runs and seems to run even better on gas than on petrol!!, thanks for all your tips I've still been following the site I've just been waiting until I had something to report back on having put your principles into practice.
So thanks vv vv much Richard Brian and Simon this has to be my finest and most worthwhile (some would say only!!) mechanical achievement to date, you've got great knowledge and experience in a most v valued worthwhile and honourable field.

(But disclaimer here for anyone else attempting to do this uninitiated and inexperienced- don't try this at home!!!),

It's only that I was quite prepared for my car to be a guinea pig in order to gain future knowledge, experience and long term savings that I've undertaken this.
I've actually had to address so many other problems that have arisen on my car whilst tinkering to achieve this at the same time.

(Lockdown s hampered me too in addressing those things)

But anyway today I'm going to try and tidy up my install a bit, double check for leaks again, see if I can optimise it in anyway physically.

I know this is only the start now, and a job only half done, luckily the components I've got and have slightly spruced seem to work, I just wouldn't undertake this again without new components with all the work involved tho.

I'm vv pleased to now be amongst a member of an incredibly clever elite club, one of the very next things on my list is to source my stickers badges and flags saying " dual fuel bi fuel Lpg hybrid etc running on gas 100mpg now you petrol swigging suckers!!!

I'll update you a little bit later on it to tell you how it's running for now guys cheers for now!!!

Gilbertd
Advanced Member
Posts: 8547
Joined: Wed Apr 09, 2008 10:00 am
Location: Peterborough

Re: Diy fitting?

#127 Post by Gilbertd » Mon Jul 13, 2020 6:15 pm

Well done, I must admit I didn't think you would manage it, but you have. Not only should you be proud of the fact you've done it, are saving money on fuel but also that you are doing your bit to save the planet too. LPG gives lower Carbon Monoxide emissions along with virtually no Nitrous Oxides or particulates, it isn't without reason that countries that really do care about the environment (e.g. France, Germany, Holland and Belgium) give concessions to vehicles running on LPG. Unlike the UK where low emission zones are just thinly disguised money making schemes.
96 Saab 900XS, AEB Leo, sold
93 Range Rover 4.2LSE, Lovato LovEco, sold
97 Range Rover 4.0SE, multipoint, sold
98 Ex-Police Range Rover 4.0, AEB Leo, daily motor
96 Range Rover 4.6HSE Ascot, AEB Leo, my spare


Proud member of the YCHJCYA2PDTHFH club.

Brian_H
Intermediate Member
Posts: 1934
Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2012 12:21 pm
Location: Milton Keynes

Re: Diy fitting?

#128 Post by Brian_H » Mon Jul 13, 2020 6:19 pm

Well done getting it running, particularly given some of the current difficulties getting stuff done at the moment

Budgetbond
New member
Posts: 158
Joined: Wed Jan 29, 2020 10:41 pm

Re: Diy fitting?

#129 Post by Budgetbond » Mon Jul 13, 2020 9:08 pm

Hey thanks v much guys I totally doff my cap to you guys, this countries experts, we 're travestically!! way behind Europe in this fascinating field maybe now I'll maybe get to travel on the continent more and see the difference.
I'm obviously hoping and optomistic that there's a very good long term future for lpg, despite current difficulties and also the electrification of vehicles, there must be a very good future for a fossil fuel with still 2 sources both as a byproduct of oil fractionation producing petrol production and also gas fields, I've been fascinated with such issues and quests my whole life I would ve luv d to have got involved and so this albeit belatedly is my opportunity.
And thanks it's been a bit of a challenge with the circs too and my previous practical experience cos I know I'm almost "toolless."

Anyway, been trying to assess my build today and tidy it up a bit more, I'll get some more pics when I've finished, and it's running far smoother on gas than petrol, and when I switch back to petrol it struggles initially for a while (occasionally cuts out) so I'm already rueing not being able to run on gas!!!

As I say it's running quite well on gas and changes quite well to it quite quickly from cold which is handy around town driving.

I've not quite completed permanently and waterproofed some of my electrical connection s .

I managed to get my nozzles drilled really really close in and the pipes are pretty short I was gonna try and chop another inch out of them but they're pretty secure now and the old rubbers quite stiff to manipulate so I'll probably leave them, certainly for now.
And I put in slightly intruding extended nozzles to try and get the injection point almost identical and symmetrical.)

The only thing is, and I've experimented slightly today, I don't know whether my lpg injector superseal connections should be ordered 1-4 or 4-1 (and also whilst I was playing around with them the number 2 + number 4 came off the wires so they may be mixed up!!!)
But I've actually tried changing the order of them and they don't seem to make much discernible difference in the running, is there anyway of telling?

(and thanks, I am quite committed to this so I've really checked for leaks made things pretty secure and pretty efficient flowing, the routing of the fuel pipes underneath the car was pretty well done and managed in the spaces left inbetween the petrol pipes.)

Gilbertd
Advanced Member
Posts: 8547
Joined: Wed Apr 09, 2008 10:00 am
Location: Peterborough

Re: Diy fitting?

#130 Post by Gilbertd » Mon Jul 13, 2020 9:36 pm

Budgetbond wrote:
Mon Jul 13, 2020 9:08 pm
it's running far smoother on gas than petrol, and when I switch back to petrol it struggles initially for a while (occasionally cuts out)
That would suggest the LPG system needs calibrating. As it piggy backs onto the petrol system, if the calibration is wrong the petrol fuel trims will adjust to try to get it running at the correct mixture. Then when you go back to petrol the mixture will be wrong until it adjusts the trims back again. Not in the slightest bit unexpected when you've fitted a system that was originally on a 2ZZGE motor onto a 1ZZFE.
96 Saab 900XS, AEB Leo, sold
93 Range Rover 4.2LSE, Lovato LovEco, sold
97 Range Rover 4.0SE, multipoint, sold
98 Ex-Police Range Rover 4.0, AEB Leo, daily motor
96 Range Rover 4.6HSE Ascot, AEB Leo, my spare


Proud member of the YCHJCYA2PDTHFH club.

Budgetbond
New member
Posts: 158
Joined: Wed Jan 29, 2020 10:41 pm

Re: Diy fitting?

#131 Post by Budgetbond » Mon Jul 13, 2020 10:39 pm

Yeah an advantage for me in getting a used system off a v similar car is that it's sent me in a direction I wanted to go down for ages but hadn't really been viable for me at the time, and it made quite a few things easier for me so it was an opportunity, however, despite the cost, I'm not sure Id recommend anyone else pursuing a similar route without prior experience.
Cos despite me being reliably informed, it didn't look like a not long used system and it had been sat for quite a long while too I can tell.
I tried sprucing up the components, I cleaned and lube d up a bit the magic jet injectors, no 3 felt a bit 'weak' but it seems to be firing ok now.
The vaporizer I tried to recommission and it seems to be working, but these are all gambles with second-hand bits that for the time effort and cost and re/fitting would be better off getting new.
And of course Richard yeah there's the re calibrating I'll have to get done.

What about the lpg injector wiring up order if I change them around it doesn't seem to make much difference, is there anyway I can tell.
(Another disadvantage of a used system the number stickers came off, I knew I cocked up there)

I may try and shorten up the vac pipes too, at the mo the map sensors just attached to an existing outlet that connected to the air filter butterfly valve.

Brian_H
Intermediate Member
Posts: 1934
Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2012 12:21 pm
Location: Milton Keynes

Re: Diy fitting?

#132 Post by Brian_H » Tue Jul 14, 2020 12:46 am

Some but not all ecus will allow switching between fuels by cylinder. That's the easiest way to tell if you have wires mixed up if the running gets worse on particular cylinders. Some of the wiring diagrams will also tell you what colour wires are for each injector. As long as the hose from the injector goes to the matching cylinder for the wiring you should be fine.

You may find the lpg injector cables are using same colours as the petrol ones, or at least some sort of coding to be present there. Can't remember what ECU you have, and I'm looking at this on a phone at the minute so don't want to reread the whole thread now to check.

Budgetbond
New member
Posts: 158
Joined: Wed Jan 29, 2020 10:41 pm

Re: Diy fitting?

#133 Post by Budgetbond » Tue Jul 14, 2020 11:53 pm

Thanks Brian it's all a bit confusing to me would luv to get into it more I regard it as the nearest thing or just a different branch of rocket scientry, you guys are the exponents of.

So yeah, the only issue buildwise I have now I've tidied it up a bit is,

Some of the numbers have fallen off the superseal plug leads going into the lpg injectors while I was playing around with it (no 2 and no 4)
But it doesn't seem to make that much difference when I switch them round to the running of it. It seems pretty smoothly running I'll see if I can ascertain anything from the wires inside the leads, the systems an ESGI2 (silver).
I'm not even sure whether 1-4 should go from left to right or number ordered from right to left. Again it doesn't seem to affect the running of it when on Lpg is that or should be the case or what?

(Are there any other ways to physically check before I try and get it calibrated apols for all the daft basic questions!)

Brian_H
Intermediate Member
Posts: 1934
Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2012 12:21 pm
Location: Milton Keynes

Re: Diy fitting?

#134 Post by Brian_H » Tue Jul 14, 2020 11:59 pm

The injector cuts on the petrol injectors need to match the gas injector that's connected to the same cylinder. So you should have 3 things to match up. It will probably run ok with them slightly mixed up, but not as well as it should do. Can you see the wire colours you have?

Does not matter which order the injectors themselves are, as long as the wires and hose goes to same cylinder. Left to right or front to back isn't important. But if they are wrong the fuel will be going in at slightly wrong time.

Budgetbond
New member
Posts: 158
Joined: Wed Jan 29, 2020 10:41 pm

Re: Diy fitting?

#135 Post by Budgetbond » Wed Jul 15, 2020 2:28 pm

Thanks Brian I've had a look at the wiring diagrams and I think you've given me an idea of how I can tell for sure easily I'll report back and put a few pics of my build when I've tidied it up properly.

Budgetbond
New member
Posts: 158
Joined: Wed Jan 29, 2020 10:41 pm

Re: Diy fitting?

#136 Post by Budgetbond » Wed Jul 15, 2020 8:59 pm

Cheers Brian, yeah I looked into the wiring and diagram and it's defo setup right I double checked and it was nt cross-wired/connected.

My Lpg injectors seem to be firing all ok which wasn't a given I tried cleaning them and the reducer and solenoid a bit while they were off the car and they seem to all be functioning.

(The same couldn't be said when I tried to 'self-clean' my spare petrol injectors via YouTube tips!! while they were out, whilst I was initially using those adaptor nozzles, I actually mustve managed to gum them up and ended up pumping loads of unburnt fuel into my cat -I won't be doing that again I'll probably have to get another car and have it done again!!)

I made a rough measurement today and my lpg seemed to kick-in after about 1.75 miles/5 mins, it does instantly restart on lpg, but tho I've tried to plumb and position and make sure my coolant system heats up quickly, as Richard says I may have to try and get that shortened, perhaps to about a minute?, to optimise its usage around town.

And also again as Richard says it s running rich, my eml s coming on with the p0172 code which I've just read another thread on here, so yeah, I need to get that looked into.

I now just need to tidy up my build a bit electrically, and shorten my gas and vac pipes as practical as poss, and set my injectors at a slight incline, I'll post some pics up on here when it's done and you 'll have to give me a bit of a critique on it.

I've enjoyed for me the surprising result but I'm not sure whether I'd recommend anyone doing anything similar with all the other issues I encountered with my car at the sametime too, with the work and risks involved.

LPGC
Installer
Posts: 4072
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:01 pm
Location: Yorkshire
Contact:

Re: Diy fitting?

#137 Post by LPGC » Wed Jul 15, 2020 10:27 pm

P0172 and struggles / cuts out when switched back to petrol....

If you email one of us your map we'll be able to modify it and email the map back to you to prevent this so it will run properly on gas and petrol ;-)

We'd expect a bit of an unusual shaped map on the VVTi.

I've got a lot on lately with LPG installs and repairs but if busy when I received it I'd get around to it asap, or you might find it better to ask one of the others to do it? Post pics of your map before and after changes?
Full time LPG installer
Servicing / Diagnostics / Repairs to all systems / DIY conversion kits supplied with thorough tech support
Mid Yorkshire
2 miles A1, 8 miles M62,
http://www.Lpgc.co.uk
Twitter https://twitter.com/AutogasSimon
07816237240

Budgetbond
New member
Posts: 158
Joined: Wed Jan 29, 2020 10:41 pm

Re: Diy fitting?

#138 Post by Budgetbond » Wed Jul 15, 2020 11:29 pm

Thanks Simon you're an absolute legend I'm not surprised your busy!!!

and cheers, yeah theyre the symptoms, Ill try and do that, ive ordered a cable and am just trying to load the latest version of the software now, but even connecting doesnt sound straightforward just doing a bit of research on it, it sounds pretty complicated.

my ecu's pre-setup for a more powerful version of my engine as Richards said.

and keep up all youre good work you deserve a medal, am just trying to think which one, ironically I was gonna pay you a visit in the first week of lockdown i might get another chance in September again tho

Budgetbond
New member
Posts: 158
Joined: Wed Jan 29, 2020 10:41 pm

Re: Diy fitting?

#139 Post by Budgetbond » Wed Jul 22, 2020 1:39 am

Ok quick update, managed to put a bit of work in on it today. First long run yesterday seeing how the conversion would hold up then on the way back got quite a big misfire on both petrol and lpg, fairly suddenly, and only just managed to limp home.

My initial thoughts were the common injector connections which I thought mite be suspect due to my novice soldering with a cheap gas iron in the field.
By the roadside I could feel that moving some of the connections I'd covered up and thought were secure altered the revs so I knew they were suspect.

Had to stop and start a few times on petrol but managed to limp home on low revs after attempting to improve the connections slightly roadside.

But I could tell I don't think it was just that.
It was accompanied by a couple of codes, (as well as the running rich one previously down to not calibrating) A p1349 and a lean running one I think from memory.

Anyway I've had a p1349 in the past I've previously addressed slightly before but has always come on sporadically under certain running conditions and left it. But since the conversion it's come on a bit more.

So after regoogling the symptoms and knowing id had a few overfueling and oil probs during conversion etc, and because I had a spare vvti solenoid anyway thought I'd clean and swap that and clean the filter for it anyway, as a fairly easy ruling out too.

Anyway managed to clean em, filter was actually quite a bit dirty than last time but didn't seem completely filthy.

On cleaning and testing my actuator solenoid s they tested ok but both used sets gave a resistance reading of 0ohms. I couldn't work it out now matter how I used my multimeter couldn't get a reading for resistance on either solenoid when I thought they were to be within a certain band of readings. But they did checkout ok on the other tests and operating, so I stuck my spare set on.

I checked out the camshaft sensor connectivity seemed ok and coil packs and rpm connection again nothing obvious initially.

So I tried to start it and recheck for codes and running and seemed better, so I narrowed down my loosish injector connector and redid that and it seems ok for now up and down the rev range.

So I quickly tried to connect up my laptop to my new cable and after a few attempts with different ports and an earlier version in the end of the software updates I'd downloaded, managed to auto calibrate and change a couple of settings and seems to have saved cos switching back to petrol doesn't seem to cut out as much. I mite even have a map somewhere.

Anyway, seems to run ok for now!! Will have to see tommorrow.

Also took on board some of your other tips and modified some of the other parts of the build too.

Budgetbond
New member
Posts: 158
Joined: Wed Jan 29, 2020 10:41 pm

Re: Diy fitting?

#140 Post by Budgetbond » Thu Jul 23, 2020 11:20 pm

Anyway, had a few hiccups, running terrible on petrol multiple cylinder misfires and partic cyl no 2, gas seems to be running ok, tried playing with the software and autocalibrating afterwards several times.
Somethings obviously happened to make it run like this on petrol.
I did change the vvti actuator/solenoid, because i had a historical code on that anyway and clean the filter and altho it seemed to improve it, like you said it didnt fix it.

Ill elaborate a bit more and maybe open up a new thread, im concerned now by how its running on petrol and how its occured, car was running pretty well before i started but know it could be a multitude of things.

Ill elaborate a bit more, cheers.

Post Reply