Diy fitting?

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Brian_H
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Re: Diy fitting?

#101 Post by Brian_H » Mon May 18, 2020 9:19 pm

Budgetbond wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 8:59 pm
Cheers guys,

Richard thanks v much for your input and knowledge, yeah that ties in, did you manage to fit a lot to your daughters mr2 it looks quite cramped in there to access drilling the inlet manifold?

So instead of accessing and breaking into the actual wiring loom then if you access the ecu in its 'box' can you just solder the wires to the pins coming out of it at its source can you?I

At the minute all I've got is a bundle of severed wires attached to a loom, I was thinking it wasn't even complete, some of the wires have been severed quite short. The loom doesn't seem quite the same either.

Am gonna put a bit of a disclaimer in here for anyone else who reads this.

DO NOT TRY THIS AT HOME without any professional experience, knowledge mechanical and electrical know-how and a workshop or garage.
And the ability to fix the other things you break on your car as you're doing it!!!!

Anyway, almost every thing has been tricky I don't think I'd recommend a second-hand kit either unless you know what you're doing!!!
Anyway at least it's a start for me.

Today I've spent quite a lot of the day trying to thread the switch (cos it's intact on a length of wire thro the bulkhead even that's been a nightmare.

Yeah are the lambda wires just for oscilloscope and calibration are they or something like that?

And my 'missing ' ignition wire could be also attached to one of my injectors could it?

Rather than going onto the pins, leave some of the wire there, but as long as you match the right wires up it shouldn't matter. I've done it to injectors before, but some vehicles this is difficult due to space etc (the v8 disco wires are obscured by the upper manifold, and if I was doing that again now I'd look to interrupt the loom somewhere else).

You probabbly need to peel back the protective covering on the loom to find the red wire, it could be anywhere in there. But the likely path is the petrol injector cuts out of them all (you can take it from any ignition switched live, but since your going to petrol injector wiring it makes sense to take it from there in most cases).

The lambda sensors wires are what was used with the early systems (non-sequential) but there are better ways to calibrate sequential systems (and breaking into those wires is a pain usually anyway). Ideally you want to view fuel trims on petrol and gas under the same conditions and get the petrol trims to look the same on both fuels.

You might be better with a 90 degree end on a JIC type pipe, but you'd need the JIC type filler to go with it and a multivalve adaptor. JIC is a pain to work with as you need to get it to the right length, which takes a bit of practice/fiddling about to get it to sit nicely and work. You might find these to be an alternative option for what you have? https://tinleytech.co.uk/shop/lpg-parts ... 5-to-8-mm/

You don't have the exact problem I had there as you don't have the plastic box to contend with though.

When you get a new loom there is a piece of heatshrink over the connector for the switch, that can make it easier to get it through the bulkhead though sometimes its easier than others.

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Re: Diy fitting?

#102 Post by Gilbertd » Mon May 18, 2020 9:37 pm

Budgetbond wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 8:59 pm
Richard thanks v much for your input and knowledge, yeah that ties in, did you manage to fit a lot to your daughters mr2 it looks quite cramped in there to access drilling the inlet manifold?

So instead of accessing and breaking into the actual wiring loom then if you access the ecu in its 'box' can you just solder the wires to the pins coming out of it at its source can you?
And my 'missing ' ignition wire could be also attached to one of my injectors could it?
We weren't fitting LPG to it, I don't think you could, the MR2 doesn't even have a boot where you could mount a tank, all it has is a couple of overgrown glove boxes behind the seats! We were changing the engine as the original had suffered the usual pre-2003 1ZZ-FE problem of drinking oil. It had been driven about 150 miles, had ran out of oil, seized one big end and snapped the conrod. It was bought in that state and I bought a replacement engine to fit. The replacement 2004 engine came complete with engine bay wiring loom attached so it was simply a case of fitting the engine and plugging it in. The problem with the earlier engine was that the pistons only had 2 very small oil feed holes behind the oil control rings. In addition, Toyota specified semi-synthetic oil with a fairly long service interval. The oil feed holes blocked up, the oil control rings stuck in their grooves so didn't do anything and the oil consumption went through the roof. The post-2003 engine has 4 larger holes behind the oil control rings and Toyota specify synthetic oil and a shorter service interval.

The wiring for the LPG system needs to intercept the pulse from the ECU to the injector, so the original wire needs to be cut and the pair of wires from the LPG controller need to be connected to the two cut ends. That way, when running on petrol the wires are just shorted together inside the LPG controller but when on gas the pulses from the petrol ECU are intercepted and used to fire the LPG injectors instead. You could cut them at the injectors but it's going to be messy so connecting at the ECU is going to keep all the soldering in one place and make the wiring neater. Yes, you can, and most people do, pick up the ignition switched supply from the common feed to the injectors. By the way, the two injector intercept wires must be connected the right way round, There's usually a plain coloured on and a matching coloured one but with a stripe. I can't remember which way round they go (I think it is plain colour to the ECU and stripe to the injector but wouldn't swear to it). The lambda feed is just Teed into the existing signal wire leaving it connected to the petrol ECU.
96 Saab 900XS, AEB Leo, sold
93 Range Rover 4.2LSE, Lovato LovEco, sold
97 Range Rover 4.0SE, multipoint, sold
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96 Range Rover 4.6HSE Ascot, AEB Leo, my spare


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Re: Diy fitting?

#103 Post by Budgetbond » Tue May 19, 2020 9:52 am

Vv vv interesting and helpful let me get back to you a bit later gonna try and butcher a way thro this bulkhead try and see whether an angled connector would work better and plan an attack on the wiring, feeling slightly overwhelmed at mo thanks for your fine counsel.

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Re: Diy fitting?

#104 Post by Budgetbond » Wed May 20, 2020 8:21 pm

Multivalve filler pipe bend/kink
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Re: Diy fitting?

#105 Post by Budgetbond » Wed May 20, 2020 8:23 pm

I'll comment again in a min but this is the attached donor wiring loom I'm trying to deal with at mo
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Re: Diy fitting?

#106 Post by Budgetbond » Wed May 20, 2020 8:24 pm

Hang on
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Re: Diy fitting?

#107 Post by Budgetbond » Wed May 20, 2020 8:53 pm

Thanks for all your amazing comments so far recently, ill reply back in a min, but the above pics are the state of my current mutivalve filler pipe, and yeah brian i think a 45 degree connector maybe better, its a bit awkward ideally i think a right angle connector is more suited but its v cramped in there are any connections any smaller or are the copper pipe connectors smaller and be more suitable here im only using about 0.5m of pipe my filler s in a promiment place in the rear bumper.

And this is the donor loom peeled away now but still attached ive got to transfer over to mine somehow (the looms actually not quite identical its off a slightly diff model but almost identical.
Im just wondering where i should take the brown wire rpm signal from here, the crankshaft sensor wires are there but they are sheathed and not obvious at mo (im assuming they are too on mine, I could access the camshaft position wires fairly easily (does this wire have to be teed in or cut and if so does it have to be directional again?)
or do i try and get a signal from one of the coil wires as per the manual, from further away tho than this bundle.

Ill update more after 'tea' thanks immensely

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Re: Diy fitting?

#108 Post by Budgetbond » Wed May 20, 2020 9:52 pm

Thanks for all your great comments, lockdowns been a bit of a bonus and also a bane in trying to convert, i'll reiteerate I wouldnt encourage anyone else to undertake this esp with used parts, go and consult a professional, even what i thought would be the straightfoward bits were tricky, v, technical and potentially v hazardous health and safety wise, so undertake and proceed with caution so many other areas of my car got affected without workshop facilities, Im not completely toolless but with all the technical complexitys definitely clueless, its been a great learning experience i would luv to get and stay involved with this more.

Anyway thanks for your previous comments, ive managed to install my switch through the bulkhead now fairly ok.

I just need to spend a day really trying to finish the business end off really with everything at hand.

As you can see in the above pic, ive got a spare similar loom with the injector wires still attached to transfer over to mine so i figure what ill try and do is break into my own loom in a similar position, and try and replicate/swap over the connections already made, and try and tidy it up as best as possible afterwards.

What do people generally use to try and connect/solder the wires in a compact fashion, i'm just still unsure with the proximity of the wires where to take my brown rpm signal from, and is that 'teed' in somehow or 'cut'.

(ps. Richard thanks for your brilliance, no wonder youre slightly loathing of the mr2 s etc, that was a fair task you accomplished there ive seen the space in the mr2 engine bay and thats no mean feat. ironically enough i did actually think if this project didnt workout in my car I was just going to get rid of it, its been in bits ive had to rectify as ive worked, or just get something newer and get a proper job done on it.
in fact i saw a prefacelift mr2 around the corner i actually enquired about, im not sure I dont think your daughters got hers anymore has she?
Thanks for your great info, vvv helpful, looking at it there must be slight variations in wiring colours and loom even on the same engine, the spare loom again is actually off a 190hp 2zz engine and is not quite identical, which all just goes to show the complications and competences required, but its fascinating, your knowledge s incredible and much valued, Im just trying to assess where best to get the rpm signal from in my situ, it doesnt 'have' to be from a coil pulse does it?)

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Re: Diy fitting?

#109 Post by Gilbertd » Wed May 20, 2020 11:10 pm

I'm not loathing of them at all, just the poor design on the pre-2003 engines. MR2 engine swap was pretty straightforward. Support the weight of the engine and gearbox on an engine crane, disconnect it from the rest of the car and lower it down to the ground. Then attach the engine crane to the car and lift it up in the air. Drag the engine/gearbox unit out, swap the engine for the new one and shove it under the car again. Lower the car back down to the ground, attach the crane to the engine and lift it back into place. Took a weekend from start to finish. Unfortunately, just over 3 years ago she was sitting at a roundabout on her way to work when someone decided to drive into the back of it with a Volvo. That wrote that one off so she got another. Unfortunately the replacement was an upmarket version with full red leather but, not being an import as the original one had been, no air conditioning. Last summer she realised that a black car with red leather interior and no air con just wasn't practical so it was sold and she bought a Gen 7 Celica, the 190 bhp version with the 2ZZ-FE motor. That motor is mental, up to 6,000 rpm it's a docile, economical sports Coupe, from 6,000 rpm to the red line at 9,000, it is completely bonkers.

Is that the factory loom, the LPG loom or bits of both? RPM signal can be picked up from a coil pulse but as the pulses originate at the ECU, that can be picked up at the ECU the same as the others. That just needs to be Tee'd, if you cut it, then it wouldn't fire on one cylinder.
96 Saab 900XS, AEB Leo, sold
93 Range Rover 4.2LSE, Lovato LovEco, sold
97 Range Rover 4.0SE, multipoint, sold
98 Ex-Police Range Rover 4.0, AEB Leo, daily motor
96 Range Rover 4.6HSE Ascot, AEB Leo, my spare


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Brian_H
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Re: Diy fitting?

#110 Post by Brian_H » Thu May 21, 2020 8:55 am

Budgetbond wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 8:53 pm
Thanks for all your amazing comments so far recently, ill reply back in a min, but the above pics are the state of my current mutivalve filler pipe, and yeah brian i think a 45 degree connector maybe better, its a bit awkward ideally i think a right angle connector is more suited but its v cramped in there are any connections any smaller or are the copper pipe connectors smaller and be more suitable here im only using about 0.5m of pipe my filler s in a promiment place in the rear bumper.
The copper pipe uses the olive and union only (the bit you have screwed into the valve currently threaded onto the polypipe adaptor) so would be shorter, you may have more chance getting a sensible bend into a piece of copper given the space constraints your working to.

Equally it may be worth trying it as it is, its hard to tell from the photos how much of a bend/restriction it actually is.

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Re: Diy fitting?

#111 Post by LPGC » Thu May 21, 2020 12:05 pm

As Bri says it's difficult to see the shape and dimensions / space / angles you have to work in.

I reckon a 180degree turn in 8mm Faro needs the parallels to be at least around 5 inches apart to avoid kinking.

If Faro is used as fill pipe you can save a little bit of length next to the filler by using an 8mm Faro to M12 threaded connector. The problem with threaded connectors is they have to be connected to the filler first, then when you tighten the Faro connector it has a tendency to spin the Faro which can also causes kinks. There are ways to prevent spinning the Faro as you tighten the Faro clamp, start tightening the clamp with the Faro twisted a bit anti-clockwise so tightening clockwise brings the Faro straight again and/or hold the Faro with curved section of pliers (gently as not to crush it) as you tighten the Faro nut.

Faro to straight brass shank / olive / 'copper equivalent' connectors can be cut short, as long as there is a couple of mm of the shank protruding through the olive they're long enough... but firmly press the shank into the copper pipe connector during tightening because with the shank cut short the end of the shank might not locate into the pipe fitting until the olive nut is quite a way onto it's threads. Most straight Faro/shank connectors are a bit longer than most 90degree Faro/shank connectors, probably won't be able to cut a 90degree connector down much but it's also far less likely you'd need to cut a 90 degree connector shank than straight shank (with a 90deg connector the pipe comes away at 90deg to the plain of the shank, with a straight connector the pipe comes away inline with the shank).

If your filler is in a position that doesn't need external venting (no cover on the back of the filler and no vent pipe needed) it allows ways of plumbing that you couldn't do if you needed external venting, for example you can fit a 90degree filler with a 90degree Faro connector for a dogleg like arrangement. I prefer not to use 90degree connectors where possible because they probably slow fill speed a little compared to straight connectors.
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Re: Diy fitting?

#112 Post by Budgetbond » Thu May 21, 2020 6:36 pm

Thank you Simon I'm just trying to get my head around the terminology and expertise of what you've said there to the uninitiated it's quite intimidating, I may well come and pay you a visit in Sept if things are back to normal when I'm going down to the East Coast, ironically I was going to do that in the first week of lockdown, to have a look at my build see if it's any good and probably rectify anything that needs doing, including a better filler pipe, for the mo I'll just see how safe and restrictive the set-up above is.

The other pics are of a loom from actually Richard the 190 model of Celica like your daughters that my kit came attached to (instead of disconnecting the injectors etc the loom was just taken off with the connections in situ from the car it came off) it's almost the same as the 140 loom, as you can see the connections were made 'in loom' on that conversion as opposed to at ecu, which I can imagine would be neater.

So, to make it easy and with the lengths of the wires that came with the kit, I'm just going to try and swap over and replicate that conversion and neaten it up afterwards.
The brown presumably rpm wire is disconnected and I'll need to connect it back up to a pulse signal, I've cut into the loom above and I'll have to do the same with mine but I'm just wondering given that incision, which wire to tap it into (my lpg ecu mite have to be located close to the reducer which is on the other side of the engine bay to the petrol ecu)
So I could easily/er tap the brown wire into either the camshaft position sensor or the crankshaft position sensor signal negative wire easier than the coil wires.

So could I use the camshaft position sensor negative wire or the crankshaft sensor wire instead? (The camshaft sensor signal wire could actually be easiest if that could be used)

Ps. Thanks a lot gents you're actually involved and knowledgeable in something really worthwhile valuable and fascinating in my view.

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Re: Diy fitting?

#113 Post by Brian_H » Thu May 21, 2020 7:13 pm

You should be fine to use the camshaft sensor wire, I wouldn't use the crank one as that wire is typically more difficult to get connected to, and is usually in an area of the engine more exposed to the elements than the camshaft one so may cause problems if you don't have a watertight connection. It will just be a case of setting the appropiate settings in the software when you get to that point. Sometimes you don't even need the rpm wire (depends on ecu and vehicle involved, but its possible to detect it from the fuel injector pulses instead), Simon would be be the best bet to advise there

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Re: Diy fitting?

#114 Post by LPGC » Thu May 21, 2020 7:38 pm

If it's an AEB ECU you can't usually connect the rpm wire to crank or cam sensor.
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Re: Diy fitting?

#115 Post by Budgetbond » Thu May 21, 2020 8:39 pm

Hiya it's a polish ESGI system prolly not the best don't think they make em anymore, maybe similar to a stag system possibly I think.

There's a brown wire that's been disconnected can't see where from and yeah you're right Brian the crankshaft sensor wires sheathed and there s another similar sheathed wire in that bundle too, but I can connect easily to the camshaft sensor -ve wire so dyou think that may also work but I may have to update the software settings (that's even if I can get into it) or I could just route a longer wire to an uncommon coloured coil wire for sure?

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Re: Diy fitting?

#116 Post by LPGC » Thu May 21, 2020 8:52 pm

If it's a silver looking ESGI ECU you can't use a cam or crank sensor, if it's a black looking ESGI ECU you may (but unlikely) be able to use a cam or crank sensor. There aren't many ESGI black systems around.

ESGI is a one-off brand (not a clone of anything else) and is one of the most basic ECU's (especially the silver). But it is truly sequential (a positive) and has the most configurable multiplier map of any system - you can set 255 multiplier points(!) but only between 1ms and 25ms, each channel can have it's own % difference dialled in (a positive), there's no rpm compensation (a negative), no extra injection filtering (a negative but a workaround works on some vehicles that feature extra injection), no petrol addition capability (a negative), temp and pressure compensation cannot be adjusted (negatives).
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Re: Diy fitting?

#117 Post by Budgetbond » Thu May 21, 2020 9:22 pm

Thank you Simon you are an expert par excellence yes mine's a silver ecu one, well that simplifies and rules out that one at least I know where the wires gonna go now to the nearest coil pack pulse wire a different colour to the rest of them, attempting to change the software settings was another big obstacle at this stage.

Can I ask you it seems peculiar that quite a few of the wires can actually be made redundant eg. Lambdas just for calibration, +ve ignition can be taken from common injector wires, rpm may not be necessary can be taken from injection pulses potentially.
What s your opinion of the simpler systems (and of the esgi if you've got one) do they offer many drawbacks or what advantages might a more sophisticated system add?

And what part of the systems are you best investing in quality in would that be better ecu, more premium injectors (mine are magic jet) or making sure you've got a good reducer.

And have you got any easy tips on trying to maximise fuel efficiency when on lpg, I'm going to try and get my inj ector nozzles as v close as poss and shorten pipe lengths as much as poss?

And do electrical connection s quality make much difference and what/how do people connect efficiently generally?

(Great respect to you Simon you've got a great reputation nationwide)

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Re: Diy fitting?

#118 Post by Budgetbond » Thu May 21, 2020 9:31 pm

Oh and to add, didn't see the whole of your last post for a sec, when you say multiplier points, do you mean actual points on the map you can alter the lpg fuel trim on?

And I've noticed for sale things like ignition timing advancers to try and maximise the energy potentials of lpg, am I right there and can they be fitted to any systems and does it work or am I completely mistaken there, just wondered?

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Re: Diy fitting?

#119 Post by Brian_H » Thu May 21, 2020 9:50 pm

Budgetbond wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 9:22 pm
And do electrical connection s quality make much difference and what/how do people connect efficiently generally?
Efficiency no, but reliability can be affected by them (if your unlucky enough to a point where the car isn't drivable until you fix it). If they are exposed to the elements in any way then its best to try and seal them, Soldered joints and glued heatshrink is one way to do that.

I've had reasonable sucess with these https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/281x-Waterpr ... 2787923913

The glue helps reinforce the joint as well, but obviously you want to make the joint as robust as possible as well. Normal heatshrink will allow water to get inside the joint eventually and then it rots the wire away where you can't see it happening.

Simon will liklely say a lot more on this, but the point of the lambda sensor wires is for monitoring only - older systems (older than what you have there - single point mostly) would tune by using the lambda sensor as you often wouldn't be able to see much if any other detail from the engine ECU. The display of it is just a hangover in most cases left there as thats what installers expected to see. In most systems they aren't needed - the newer ones might not even have the wires in the loom (the KME systems I've got don't have them, the Landi I had did have them, and had a fault on that bit of the ecu discovered by Simon so it always showed 0.32v on that even with the wire disconnected from anything).

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Re: Diy fitting?

#120 Post by Gilbertd » Thu May 21, 2020 10:41 pm

Budgetbond wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 9:31 pm
And I've noticed for sale things like ignition timing advancers to try and maximise the energy potentials of lpg, am I right there and can they be fitted to any systems and does it work or am I completely mistaken there, just wondered?
LPG has an Octane rating of 112 so you can run more compression and/or ignition advance without suffering from pre-ignition (pinking) than when running on petrol. So you can get more power from an engine running on LPG and using an ignition timing advancer than when running on petrol. If you are looking for out and out maximum power that's the way to go, although I suspect you aren't.
96 Saab 900XS, AEB Leo, sold
93 Range Rover 4.2LSE, Lovato LovEco, sold
97 Range Rover 4.0SE, multipoint, sold
98 Ex-Police Range Rover 4.0, AEB Leo, daily motor
96 Range Rover 4.6HSE Ascot, AEB Leo, my spare


Proud member of the YCHJCYA2PDTHFH club.

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