Diy fitting?

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Budgetbond
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Diy fitting?

#1 Post by Budgetbond » Wed Jan 29, 2020 11:18 pm

I've been given a working lpg kit from a friend's identical car and I was at least going to try and fit as much of it as possible before if necessary taking it to a garage is there a fitting guide anywhere on here at all.
And which bits of the conversion are diyable and what jobs are going to be a bit difficult to accomplish?
Thanks

Brian_H
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Re: Diy fitting?

#2 Post by Brian_H » Wed Jan 29, 2020 11:36 pm

The answer varies somewhat depending on the car and the system involved. Any idea what system your dealing with? Most but not all have wiring diagrams with the interface software. If your reusing the tank then provided its fitted correctly now you should be able to recreate that.

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Re: Diy fitting?

#3 Post by Budgetbond » Thu Jan 30, 2020 2:25 pm

Hiya Brian it's a 4 cylinder multi point sequential kit think it's mostly complete, including predrilled and fitted intake manifold etc going on/for a Toyota Celica 1.8 vvti 140hp haven't actually got possession of the kit yet but it's cheap and v little used, think it might be an aeb king or an sgi,I might be able to get pics of it previously insitu, but I doubt it 'll come with the software that's all.
I was thinking of doing as much of the physical mechanical fitting and maybe electrics to a reasonable standard and then take it somewhere else for calibration and signing off.
Would the lack of software or wiring diagrams be a barrier or can you get hold of these online etc?

(For me this is the way forward for long term prosperity running petrol cars so id like to try myself and learn as much as poss)

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Re: Diy fitting?

#4 Post by Brian_H » Thu Jan 30, 2020 7:24 pm

Most of the AEB ones are similar, finding the wiring diagram unliklely to be difficult once you know the one you actually have to look for. Manifold probabbly a good thing as long as its been drilled in the right places. Is the kit working ok on your friends car?

Some of the wiring diagrams can be found on https://tinleytech.co.uk/lpg-software/ (look for the diagnostic software for your ecu, wiring diagram is with a lot of them). Alternatively the other site listed on that page - https://projekt-tech.com/diagnostic-programs-pm-23.html has a load more. cables for most systems are also easy to obtain (few exceptions being Prins and some of the really old kit and obscure kit thats rarely seen now)

You might want to also consider phoning around a few places to see if they will inspect and signoff what your intending to do. LPGC on here can help you with that if you can get to him with the car. Not all other installers are willing to do so, its a good idea to check particually if you need anything specific for your insurance company once its done.

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Re: Diy fitting?

#5 Post by Brian_H » Thu Jan 30, 2020 7:24 pm

You will also want to consider a valve saver system on the Toyota, if its not already with the kit.

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Re: Diy fitting?

#6 Post by Budgetbond » Thu Jan 30, 2020 8:27 pm

Thanks Brian, yeah I'll know a bit more when I actually get hold of the kit, it is supposed to have only done a few miles but has been left in his garage quite a while I don't know whether there's any implications of that at all?
I assume the kits all there, Ive heard about the recommendations for a valve saver on my engines I don't know whether he has one or not, can you try and 'get away' without them any way at all (I thought about adding a bit of 2 stroke to the petrol to compensate when running on petrol don't know whether that would make any difference or not).
I wondered if there are any bits 'missing' whether exact spares are readily available or whether some bits are 'universe's e.g. Solenoid s, filters, switches, reducers, inter-swappable.
And are ancillary things like pipes and fillers pretty commonplacely available?
I was hoping to do as much as I can myself for future experience, but the wiring does seem quite complicated and not really my forte.
I've been trying to get a pic of a kit off a similar vehicle to make fitting the components a bit easier cos looking at my engine bay it might not be quite as straightforward as I first thought, I know there are some better ways of doing this but I'm not sure yet the methods of actual attachment.
Oh and thanks for the heads up about lpgc that's really handy that and yeah they don't seem too far.

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Re: Diy fitting?

#7 Post by Brian_H » Thu Jan 30, 2020 11:39 pm

Trouble with adding 2 stoke is it's not going to get delivered when its needed. You need it going in when your not using petrol, and under ideal conditions you dont end up using much petrol at all.
I rarely fill the tank on mine, and only tend to end up using petrol if I've either miscalculated how far I have to go, or arrived somewhere to fill and found the pump isn't working/closed/gone. I reckon I go through about a tank of petrol a year like that. When more stations were about I used about 1/4 of a tank of petrol in 2 years as rarely ran on it after starting, but that was on A necam system that switched over far sooner than the sequential systems do.

Start by looking for a location for the vapouriser, ideally you want it low down in the engine bay, with access to get coolant to and from it. Keeping it low reduces chance of air locking it. Also look for a route to the tank location keeping away from both the exhaust and anything that moves under the car.

Filters pipes and solenoid can be swapped around, as can vapouriser, but if your struggling for some bits it would be easiest to work out what you've got and then see what options are available. If it's been installed using copper feed pipe you might want to buy some poly pipe instead as it's much easier to work with.

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Re: Diy fitting?

#8 Post by Budgetbond » Sun Feb 02, 2020 7:14 pm

Cheers Brian I'm just waiting to get my hands on my mates kit to see what's there and what it is, I'm hoping he's got a predrilled and fitted inlet manifold already that 'll make things easier, but I'm committed to this route and doing as much myself as poss for the future, with a view to try n get my work 'finished it'd ie checked and calibrated at somewhere like lpgc.
Re: the fitting,generally, is it better if the vaporisers mounted close to the injectors?
What about effects of gravity does that have any effect?
Can you fit the filter inbetween the tank and the vaporizer or is it better to have it placed in the 'gas' pipe bit?
And is it easy to mount the components and pipes what's generally used, mounted via brackets to pre existing bolts, drilled holes/then bolted or self tapped?
Do they come with brackets or can you buy them?
Thanks for any general tips

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Re: Diy fitting?

#9 Post by Gilbertd » Sun Feb 02, 2020 10:06 pm

There will be a liquid phase filter in the shut off solenoid where the liquid goes into the reducer and a vapour filter between the reducer and injectors. The only thing gravity will have an effect on it the coolant flow through the reducer. It needs to be mounted low so coolant flows easily and there's no danger of air locks forming in it. As for bracketry, you make them and attach them to whatever is there. So if there's an existing bolt handy, use that, if not, drill a hole and use a nut and bolt, pop-rivet or self tapper depending on what you are securing and where.
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97 Range Rover 4.0SE, multipoint, sold
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Brian_H
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Re: Diy fitting?

#10 Post by Brian_H » Sun Feb 02, 2020 10:19 pm

Vapouriser doesn't need to be really close to injectors either. Try to keep the pressure sensor close to the injectors though. A couple of my cars have 3ft long feeds between vapouriser and injectors. Try to keep the vacuum line as short as it needs to be as well. A longer run might make for more stable pressure output anyway.

New vapouriser typically come with a bracket. Injectors generally not. Yours might though being used injectors. Tanks come with some fittings when new, but these might not suit how you need to install it. You need to effectively spread the load on the fixings in some way, typically the tank fixings I've seen are large washers cut from 5mm steel at a guess. Again you might get them with your kit. If it's been installed in an acceptable manner of course.

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Re: Diy fitting?

#11 Post by kbs » Sun Feb 02, 2020 11:33 pm

if you're looking to get someone to sign off your work, might be best to speak to them before you start.
They will need to see the tank is 'in date'. usually visible on top of the tank but my current internal donut has it all under the MV and once all the hoses are in place, it cannot be read.
The rest I'm not sure about but would not be surprised if any flexible hoses also have to have the date visible. When a pro does the install for you, they knows all pipes are in date (they supplied them) even if the hose length is too short to show the date. If parts of the hose run are not visible, this could also be an issue. If you are after a UKLPG certificate - i think the installer is supposed to have emission reading from before the install was started. Hopefully none of this will be a problem but its really down to the guy signing it off - if he aint happy, you may have wasted a lot of time.

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Re: Diy fitting?

#12 Post by Brian_H » Sun Feb 02, 2020 11:40 pm

That tank would also have had a certificate when it was new, if it can be found now. Flexible pipes you might want to replace anyway especially if you aren't using exactly the same layout as before. The above comment is good advice though, speak to someone before you start if you need it certifying.

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Re: Diy fitting?

#13 Post by Budgetbond » Mon Feb 03, 2020 1:39 am

Hey cheers guy's I'm looking forward to seeing what's included in the kit, by the way is there anything you can do to any of the other components or check before fitting, I'm assured it's not done many miles but it has been lying around a while?

And I've read about people putting a piece of 'lead' or something in tanks instead of a valve saver kit, if it hasn't got one, any truth in that at all?

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Re: Diy fitting?

#14 Post by Gilbertd » Mon Feb 03, 2020 9:52 am

Liquid Propane is pretty corrosive but I doubt it would work in the way you would like. Most likely it will annoy the hell out of you as it clanks around in the tank on bumpy roads.
96 Saab 900XS, AEB Leo, sold
93 Range Rover 4.2LSE, Lovato LovEco, sold
97 Range Rover 4.0SE, multipoint, sold
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Re: Diy fitting?

#15 Post by Brian_H » Mon Feb 03, 2020 10:37 pm

If you look around they are referred to as catalysts. Personally I can't see them having any effect. They are intended for a petrol tank anyway, I don't think it would be a great idea to stick them Into an lpg tank. The clanking noise being only one reason, I can see it managing to get caught in the valve as well, or even breaking up and getting caught in the solenoid valve or elsewhere.

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Re: Diy fitting?

#16 Post by Budgetbond » Tue Feb 04, 2020 12:22 am

I see Brian thanks, so they're actually supposed to go in with the petrol tank are they and somehow introduce a bit of lead into the mix to protect the valve seats are they, does sound a bit spurious.
I know my car Toyota 1.8 1zzfe engines recommend ed to have a valve saver due to not quite as hard valves or something and expensive valve adjustments but I've heard mixed reports about the effect of valve saver kits as well, and I don't actually know if my kit will have one, are they easy to fit does it involve more drilling into the manifold or does the fluid go into the gas?
Are there any other alternatives to valve saver kits, I was thinking of just keeping my lpg running to low load/rpm eco running tbh with the odd petrol run
I don't actually do a lot of mileage, which is why I haven't got round to this by now, any other suggestions to add?

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Re: Diy fitting?

#17 Post by Brian_H » Tue Feb 04, 2020 5:40 pm

Yes, I'd be dubious as to if they would do anything personally (a bit like some of the other products out there - HHO being another example). If it doesn't dissolve, I can't see it doing anything beneficial, and if it does then surely you need to replace it. And if it does, what are you putting out the exhaust and what effect would that have? And yes, they go in the petrol tank so would be near useless on gas as they wouldn't get where its needed when your on gas either.

Flashlube does work - I've got a Ford Zetec thats done over 65k on gas (215k total mileage recorded on its defective odometer) and thats still working, Had to replace a few shims on the tappets recently as they were getting tight, but anyone in the lpg field will tell you those engines will suffer badly from vsr on gas. I've been using the JLM fluid on mine.

There are a couple of ways it can be installed, the way where it runs through the gas injectors isn't recommended, your better to introduce directly into the manifold. You might be able to do this at a single point depending on the manifold design. I don't know what yours is like to advise, but generally if you can get in at a single point where there isn't a spot afterwards where lube can gather, you should be ok. Best bet there is if you have the extra manifold have a look around it and see what options you have got. Otherwise its a case of finding a suitable point on each inlet tract and using a spider to distribute it to each cylinder.

Other alternatives are part petrol fuelling (where some petrol is injected with some gas depending on load). Not tried that personally, either to say it works or to see how much you'd use. Or run it until you have to take the head off and recut/replace valves - I was quoted around £50 a valve if they needed a new hardened insert installing to repair damage, which with 16 of them would soon add up. Though that should mean you don't need the flashlube with any luck then.

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Re: Diy fitting?

#18 Post by Brian_H » Tue Feb 04, 2020 5:42 pm

It might also be worth defining what not a lot of mileage means - bear in mind most systems won't switch over before reaching 30 degrees C typically, so if its lots of short trips from cold, all that running will be on petrol anyway.

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Re: Diy fitting?

#19 Post by Budgetbond » Tue Feb 04, 2020 9:20 pm

Thanks for that Brian, yeah good point a lot of my journey s are just short, though I might be making more longer ones if I can get half price juice!!
I'll have to see what comes with my kit, I'll keep you posted, to see if it's been predrilled etc.

You mentioned the HHO additive u mean water do you, how's that supposed to work?

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Re: Diy fitting?

#20 Post by Gilbertd » Tue Feb 04, 2020 9:58 pm

No, he's referring to HHO or Browns gas. The theory is this. You use electricity from the car battery (which is being charged by the alternator) to electrolysise water into producing a mix of Hydrogen and Oxygen which you then use as a fuel to run the engine. Those that will sell you the kit will tell you that you don't need any other fuel as the Hydrogen is the fuel and with the air and additional oxygen the engine will run. They fail to mention that you never get anything for nothing so the power generated by the engine isn't enough to drive the alternator so the battery goes flat, the electrolysis stops so the engine stops.

A properly set up system will get hot enough to change over within a mile or 2 at most, during that time you will be running on petrol. Once on LPG it will continue to run on that no matter how far you go. So if by low mileage you mean you only do a 20 mile journey twice a week, you'll benefit from the cheaper fuel. If you mean you you only drive a mile 20 times a week, you won't as you will be running on petrol all the time. I've got a load of 1ZZ-FE engine bits in the garage from when my daughter bought a Mk3 MR2 that had been run dry of oil due to the common problem on pre-2003 engines of the oil control rings sticking in their grooves. We fitted a replacement 2004 engine but I stripped the old one down to see just how much damage had been done. One big end had seized, snapped the conrod and smashed the remains into the underside of the piston bending all 4 valves on that cylinder. Block, crank and head were scrap but I kept all the ancilliary buts in case they might come in handy at some point.
96 Saab 900XS, AEB Leo, sold
93 Range Rover 4.2LSE, Lovato LovEco, sold
97 Range Rover 4.0SE, multipoint, sold
98 Ex-Police Range Rover 4.0, AEB Leo, daily motor
96 Range Rover 4.6HSE Ascot, AEB Leo, my spare


Proud member of the YCHJCYA2PDTHFH club.

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