LPG Tuning - Software Required - AEB (KING) ECU - Questions

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z1rmp
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LPG Tuning - Software Required - AEB (KING) ECU - Questions

#1 Post by z1rmp » Mon Jul 22, 2013 2:32 pm

Hi.
I have the above AEB ECU fitted to my CRV 2.0 Petrol 2001.

This is the first time I've looked at the LPG system but have always worked on my own cars for the past 20 years.

The LPG system seems thirsty (217 miles on a full 55L tank), noisier than on petrol (I was told it would be quieter) and has a tendency to jerk when it switched under load from LPG back to Petrol.

Curiosity got the better of me and rather than send it in, I've decided to first of all try to understand the system and check whether it's configured correctly.

The AEB ECU is the King PB (plastic box) type.

First things first, I need the software - I have the leads from eBay. Can anybody point me in the right direction to download this?

Secondly - connectivity wise - I have been supplied with two cables. 9-pin serial to either black 4-pin or 9-pin serial to clear plastic molex style 8 pin (of which only 4 are connected). The ECU itself is already connected to the two black connectors, leaving the clear plastic one free. I'm assuming this is the connection I make to my laptop. Do I need the black connection for anything?

Finally as I've not investigated this in any depth yet, is there any advice from existing users / tuners / installers to advise how to overcome these issues. I appreciate until I see how the system is configured I cannot begin to troubleshoot. However, it looks to me like it's just learnt a basic config from the petrol injection system and is running stock and not optimised at all. I also have an issue whereby when running on gas and the accelerator is blipped, the revs drop dangerously low. If the aircon is running, this will put the engine so close to stall that the MIL engine management light will illuminate.

The entire install took half a day and it was done...I am loathe to return it. I'd rather understand and overcome these issues and have the knowledge going forward to reconfigure and troubleshoot as necessary.

Many thanks for any guidance.

Regards.

Rob.

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Re: LPG Tuning - Software Required - AEB (KING) ECU - Questi

#2 Post by rossko » Mon Jul 22, 2013 3:34 pm

z1rmp wrote:Can anybody point me in the right direction to download this?
You might look at King suppliers, fior example
http://www.autogas-lpg.co.uk/content/10-Download-KING
z1rmp wrote:Do I need the black connection for anything?
There is either one older molex style diagnostic plug or one newer superseal style plug incorporated in AEB wiring harnesses. You only need to use the laptop lead that is approriate. A decent laptop lead set will include connectors for both.
z1rmp wrote:... it switched under load from LPG back to Petrol.
...I also have an issue whereby when running on gas and the accelerator is blipped, the revs drop dangerously low.
...The entire install took half a day and it was done
These are not encouraging, but lets see what the evidence is.

You'll also want to identify your reducer/vaporiser model and your injector model. Kings can turn up with anything, but usually low-budget.
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Re: LPG Tuning - Software Required - AEB (KING) ECU - Questi

#3 Post by z1rmp » Mon Jul 22, 2013 3:50 pm

Thanks for your reply.
I have managed to get hold of what I believe to be the latest software - v6.1.3.528 IC from here:

http://amaxlpg.pl/en/king-service.html

I do have both sets of leads so I'm assuming I use the superseal one as you recommended.

The reducer and vaporiser I'm not too sure on (if yuo could advise how I can check that would be great - I dont know what these look like), but the injectors I believe are OMVL Dream XX etc etc (from what I've read they are OMVL fast).

I've taken photographs below if this helps to identify?

https://www.dropbox.com/sc/ziafncumd68brs3/oL2SoxEGZP

What do I need to be looking for when I first connect this - do you have any initial thoughts based on my comments and issues.

Naturally I dont want to fiddle and mess anything up any worse than it already is.

Thanks again.

Your assistance is VERY much appreciated.

Rob.

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Re: LPG Tuning - Software Required - AEB (KING) ECU - Questi

#4 Post by Tubbs » Mon Jul 22, 2013 5:12 pm

Rob. You have omvl reg fast injectors. A king Eco and a kme reducer by the look of the photos. First thing is to connect. Save the file. Then whatever you do. You can always go back to where you where.
Odds are the lambdas arnet connected. And the king Eco has no k line connectivity. So an obd reader that shows live data is essential.

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Re: LPG Tuning - Software Required - AEB (KING) ECU - Questi

#5 Post by Gilbertd » Mon Jul 22, 2013 5:38 pm

z1rmp wrote:I do have both sets of leads so I'm assuming I use the superseal one as you recommended.
You use whichever one fits the dangling plug coming out of your ECU. As mentioned by Ross, you will have a dangling connector that isn't connected to anything which will be either an 8 way Molex with only 4 wires used or a Supaseal connector. You connect to whichever you have. Any Supaseal connectors that are in use are for something else and aren't the programming connection.
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Re: LPG Tuning - Software Required - AEB (KING) ECU - Questi

#6 Post by z1rmp » Mon Jul 22, 2013 8:52 pm

Well...it appears to be a mile out.
Am I correct in saying that the tinj.gas should be roughly the same as the tinj.petrol?
The Tinj.gas is roughly double that of the petrol.
I dont have an OBD reader unfortunately.
I've tried the autocalibrate and get Injectors measurement to be too small.
I've completed this calibration many times and each time at the end it states the calibration was not optimal.
The enrichment in acceleration is way over to the right.
As for the Lambda - well something was flicking between 0 and 1 on the Lambda scale so I'm not sure on that one.
I couldnt find anywhere within the software that it asked what kind of reducer I had fitted.
I have selected AEB015 reducer which seems correct and managed to select the injectors and read the engine by setting the revolution signal type to weak and RPM sensor.
So - how do I go about correcting and tuning this thing???

Thanks again.

Rob.

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Re: LPG Tuning - Software Required - AEB (KING) ECU - Questi

#7 Post by Gilbertd » Mon Jul 22, 2013 9:17 pm

By doing what it is telling you to do, enlarge the injector nozzles. Gas injection times should be between 1.2 and 1.4 times the petrol injection times so if they are double then not enough gas is going in. They will only need to go up a little at a time, no more than 0.2mm. The nozzles are the ones in the injectors, not the ones in the manifold by the way.

If the lambda is flicking between 0 and 1 volt, then it is connected so the installer got something right.
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Re: LPG Tuning - Software Required - AEB (KING) ECU - Questi

#8 Post by rossko » Mon Jul 22, 2013 9:20 pm

z1rmp wrote:Am I correct in saying that the tinj.gas should be roughly the same as the tinj.petrol?
Nope. The comparison to make is to observe petrol Tinj while running petrol, and then petrol Tinj while running gas, under the same conditions i.e. idle or cruise. If equivalent gas is being delivered by the setup, that will be the same.

Only once that's established, we can look at absolute Tinj values of gas at idle and at full throttle for sizing clues. To get help, tell us real numbers. Tinj petrol, Tinj gas, gas pressure. It's a fair guess that your injectors are undersized, but we don't need to guess.
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Re: LPG Tuning - Software Required - AEB (KING) ECU - Questi

#9 Post by Tubbs » Mon Jul 22, 2013 9:39 pm

Ok so lambds may be connected, this is good... If its flicking between 0-1v then thats ace ! Thats what its supposed to do. You see a lot of this from the 'done in a day' brigade, the reg injectors come with inserts, little brass screw in threads on the outlets. Either they are in, or out really and you can adjust the reducer pressure to suit. Maybe initially just trying to mess with the pressure and see what happens, whats the press gas at when ticking over ?
I had one in the other day and no one had thought to connect the reducer vac reference. Its supposed to be teed from the manifold vac, to the map/pressure sensor and to the reducer. That can hit you up with very strange running and autocalibration.
Ideally you want to get somewhere near to the lambda moving between 0-1v all the time at tick over. If its green it needs adjusting. Highlight the blocks where the dot is floating by holding down the mouse button and moving the cursor. Hit enter, a box pops up with choices absolute, linear, percentage. Enter a figure say 10 then click percent and enter again. That will put 10% on those figures. Watch the lambda.
But first thing to do is report the pressure of the gas and get the nozzles out i would say,

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Re: LPG Tuning - Software Required - AEB (KING) ECU - Questi

#10 Post by z1rmp » Mon Jul 22, 2013 10:01 pm

Thanks all for your help so far.
It's gone dark outside so I guess connecting a laptop up isn't great now.
I'll certainly get back to you with the figures requested tomorrow.

Sorry to be such a frustration to you professionals, guys - and your assistance is appreciated.

I've no idea what numbers or percentages you need from me so please, bear with me - it's the first time I've seen an LPG system and it appears it wasn't installed particularly well.

From the top of my head the tinj.g figures were at least twice those of the tinj.p

I did try altering the number drastically in the map to see the result but I'm not even sure what the number in the map relates to.

As commented - there's no point in guessing so I'll get some proper figures tomorrow.

Somebody mentioned adjusting the pressure. Obviously I dont want to make anything worse.

If anybody could advise what / where I would need to adjust (or remove screws from the injectors - if so, where).

Again - apologies. My only knowledge of injectors is a diesel one, directly injecting into a manifold or cylinder. I'm not up with LPG at all - at least...not yet!

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Re: LPG Tuning - Software Required - AEB (KING) ECU - Questi

#11 Post by z1rmp » Tue Jul 23, 2013 9:43 am

OK - another quick question before I pop outside and plug the laptop in regarding the injector rail.
I've identified my rail online OMVL XXI - predictably looks like the cheapest one there is.
According to what I've found the brazz nozzles fittted as standard are 2mm but if removed they become 3mm.
How do I enlarge the nozzle by a smaller degree ie 0.2 mm as suggested by one of the other posters on here?
Is it a case of there are hundreds of different sizes, and fitters have a case full?
Another poster mentioned being able to adjust the pressure.
Can anybody advise a basic procedure for doing this?

Many thanks.

Rob.

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Re: LPG Tuning - Software Required - AEB (KING) ECU - Questi

#12 Post by mat_fenwick » Tue Jul 23, 2013 9:56 am

Before you do anything not easily reversible (like drilling out the nozzles which is one way to increase the size slightly although different bought sizes are available), look at the petrol injection times both on gas and on petrol. With a well set up system they should be the same. If not then the multiplier, or fiddle factor which sets the ratio between petrol and gas injector times is not optimum, and the petrol ECU is adjusting the petrol inj. times (which the gas times are slaved from) to get a correct mixture. If it has to do this constantly, or beyond a certain limit it realises something is wrong and lights the MIL...

The multiplier is the figure in the table, with (from memory!) rpm across the top and petrol inj. times down the side. The floating ball relates to where on the map you are at that particular point in time.

EDIT - My understanding of the nozzle size indication on the software is that it's more of a guideline rather than a hard and fast rule, so we need figures! Screenshots would be ideal.
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Re: LPG Tuning - Software Required - AEB (KING) ECU - Questi

#13 Post by rossko » Tue Jul 23, 2013 10:17 am

I'l try to clarify a bit;

(1) It is essential that petrol times are the same whether running petrol or gas.

(2) It is desireable if the gas times fall into the 1x to 1.5x of petrol times area. If they don't, you might run into trouble at the extremes - idle and full throttle.

You can see that it is possible to achieve (1) and miss (2). Both factors are influenced by choosing the right parts to begin with, and then juggling sizes, types, pressures and software. There is no single "do this" easy solutiuon.
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Re: LPG Tuning - Software Required - AEB (KING) ECU - Questi

#14 Post by sijones » Tue Jul 23, 2013 10:32 am

z1rmp wrote:According to what I've found the brazz nozzles fittted as standard are 2mm but if removed they become 3mm.
How do I enlarge the nozzle by a smaller degree ie 0.2 mm as suggested by one of the other posters on here?
You don't drill them on the injectors you have, omvl have inserts on the rail, if you pull the pipe off the injector (the block not the inlet manifold) you may see a brass screw with an alan key hole inside it to remove it, on a 2.0 i would remove the brass nozzles if they are in there and leave it open as 3.0mm.

I have 2.0 producing 140bhp with no brass inserts and it runs fine like that... after removing you need to run the auto cal again...

But do check the other bits as suggested - vac to reducer etc...

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Re: LPG Tuning - Software Required - AEB (KING) ECU - Questi

#15 Post by z1rmp » Tue Jul 23, 2013 1:22 pm

Well folks.
I removed the brass inserts from the injector rail and recalibrated.
Hopefully the attached screen shots running on Gas then Petrol will answer some of the questions.

https://www.dropbox.com/sc/2mxy4icdcswl7l3/dGwv05WqNO

Upon completion of the calibration it still said that the calibration was not optimal but the car immediately drives much better.
Anything wrong with what the experts are seeing here?
I'm unsure about the Lambda voltages but from what I've read... On the CR-V mk1 2.0 petrol does it has two sensors. Upstream (pre-cat) which should read 3.3v (less if running rich, more if running lean) and then a post-cat which should be consistently 'lazy' ( 0 - 1v). Not sure how to set the software up to cater for this though or how to check how the LPG system has been installed to cater for this?
The Injector measurement immediately went into the perfect zone which made me happier.
What's my next step?

Thanks.

Rob.

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Re: LPG Tuning - Software Required - AEB (KING) ECU - Questi

#16 Post by sijones » Tue Jul 23, 2013 2:34 pm

z1rmp wrote: What's my next step?
You need a reader for the obd that can give you live trim data, you can then do the mapping and final tweaking...

Even a cheap one off ebay will do it for you, there around £25.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/D900-CANSCAN- ... 3381b71bfc

Like that... depends if you going to be using it alot or not will depend on what you spend!

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Re: LPG Tuning - Software Required - AEB (KING) ECU - Questi

#17 Post by z1rmp » Tue Jul 23, 2013 2:59 pm

Thats good advice, but I'd need to know what I'm looking at on the reader to get the mapping right.
Sorry to be a pain - like I've said - I understand carbs, and diesels not what the settings should be for these MPI systems although I do want to understand and have the reassurance that I've got it right finally.

Is the pressure OK? Should it be more? How do I adjust it?

I've looked all over the web for a basic guide to tuning this system and can't find one anywhere.

I'm learning a lot though!

Rob.

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Re: LPG Tuning - Software Required - AEB (KING) ECU - Questi

#18 Post by sijones » Tue Jul 23, 2013 3:25 pm

Let me start off with am not an installer and only a DIYer...

I think some installers run higher pressure than others, and am thinking 1.2 is where they set them to roughly but could be wrong on that, it does also depend on the reducer / injectors and the running of the system, it might need to be higher but you may also find that it's fine as it is.

Under vehicle configuration is MAP, click on that and that is the mapping, 0 being nothing 255 being max, this is what is called the fiddle factor, it's the amount of time to open the injector longer than petrol, i.e. at idle petrol is 2.80ms, you may find the number 180 (where blue dot is), and the gas injector time is 3.60ms, altering the 180 lower will reduce the gas injection time, making it higher will increase the opening time therefore altering the lean to rich mixture.

The trouble is without a reader you can't see what the petrol ecu is doing, you have short and long term trims, these alter the petrol fuelling in a instant and average, instant being short and average being long term.

A reader with live view shows you what the petrol ecu is doing with the mixture, if it's too rich or lean you adjust the map in gas and to get it as close as you can get to 0% trims or how ever it runs on petrol...

Edit: where abouts are you?

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Re: LPG Tuning - Software Required - AEB (KING) ECU - Questi

#19 Post by mat_fenwick » Tue Jul 23, 2013 3:53 pm

sijones wrote:The trouble is without a reader you can't see what the petrol ecu is doing, you have short and long term trims, these alter the petrol fuelling in a instant and average, instant being short and average being long term.
...so what you have to do (without a reader) is keep the throttle steady and switch between petrol and gas, looking for a change in the petrol injector times. Then adjusting the multiplier/fiddle factor until they are as close as possible.

My LPG vehicle does not have OBD connectivity, and this is how I set it up initially. I then managed to get hold of some software to enable me to communicate with the petrol ECU so I could view fuel trims as a percentage rather than looking at instantaneous (and slightly varying) times. I actually then took it to one of the installers on here for this subsequent fine tuning mainly so someone more experienced could do the mapping while I drove, plus it meant I learnt a bit more rather than stumbling round in the dark for hours! (My background is more carbs and mechanical diesel systems too, so I understand your position!)
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Re: LPG Tuning - Software Required - AEB (KING) ECU - Questi

#20 Post by z1rmp » Tue Jul 23, 2013 4:45 pm

Hi - I'm just outside of Leeds - the top end of Wakefield.
This car is not going back to Leeds LPG!
I'm quite prepared to buy an OBD reader to get my install right - it would be an investment.
Surely a better method would be being able to drive the car capturing the live data from an OBD source and then read that from the laptop and input it onto the LPG map rather that try to read from a handheld reader whilst on the move?

My pressure seems to be at 1.08 bar - any use in increasing this and if so, how do I do it?

As for the map settings Im getting confused. The tinj.petrol should be the same whether on gas or petrol, but the tinj.gas can be higher - right?

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