E10 fuel

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Gazza487
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E10 fuel

#1 Post by Gazza487 » Thu Jul 15, 2021 8:57 am

Bit of an odd one.

Picked up a little TF to play with after selling my Chrysler which was e10 compatible. There is a question mark over the little MG so part of decision to put a gas kit on, hell if I have to run on more expensive super I won’t use much of it. Also, an easier time to get through emissions tests on gas etc.

This along with the new congestion zones should encourage lpg uptake (granted my tf is a euro3 so no help on that front).

Have you guys seen an uptick in conversions ? People say I’m insane for running a smaller car on gas (it’ll take forever to make profit blah blah). Their jaw drops when I ask them how much they pay for fuel and I share my cost of 56p/l.

Another random question, are there any alternative methods to stabilise / remove ethanol for when they decide we must all have higher ethanol fuel ?

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Re: E10 fuel

#2 Post by LPGC » Thu Jul 15, 2021 10:44 am

There have definitely been a lot of taxis converted to LPG in recent times. In some areas taxis get double the benefit from converting to LPG, half price fuel and lower emissions zone charges.

There are products claiming to 'stabilise' ethanol, I haven't looked into them but wouldn't expect see them doing much. What aspect of ethanol would you want to protect against/stabilise (water mixing aspect / attacking old spec petrol pipe and fuel systems components aspect / or something else)?

Some people used to remove red dye out of red diesel by soaking potatoes in it... If there is a method to remove ethanol that's as much work as that I can't see many people bothering to do it.

Ethanol has higher octane than petrol, so if it's removed the remaining petrol will have lower octane than when the ethanol was present. So if you previously bought 95 Ron petrol that didn't contain ethanol, but now you buy 95 Ron petrol that contains 10% ethanol and remove that 10% of ethanol from it the petrol you 'made' may be 93 Ron (figures may not be correct, been a long time since I did the sums). Ethanol has lower calorific value than petrol, so petrol without ethanol has potential to make more engine power and give better mpg.. but only if the engine can run on the reduced octane of petrol that has had ethanol removed.

If they keep increasing ethanol content in petrol it won't be long before vehicles running on LPG get better mpg than running on petrol, and the usual half price fuel, so LPG users could see more than 50% fuel cost savings.
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Re: E10 fuel

#3 Post by Brian_H » Thu Jul 15, 2021 6:00 pm

On the euro 3 front - thats not the 100% guide. If you haven't already done so, check the vehicle using the reg on https://www.gov.uk/clean-air-zones and https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/ultra- ... tcmp=52215 . I have a car that is shown as Euro 3, but is classed as an early adopter so is not charged. Thats a 2001 Ford. Granted its on gas (and on the logbook with the correct fuel type) but it seems compliant even without gas.

Best thing to stabilise the petrol with ethanol is to stick some fresh in regulally and make sure the tank is sealed (original fuel cap, not some emergency universal one from the garage being the obvious cause for potential problems). There are places (not in the UK currently) where E85 is commonly available on the pump.

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Re: E10 fuel

#4 Post by Budgetbond » Thu Jul 15, 2021 9:44 pm

From the bits I've read about e10 all seem to agree with the above, but I don't think there are many cars that can't run on it are there and exactly why.

I wouldn't feel wrong about converting smaller cars, I've been looking recently on the continent and they don't seem to have any qualms at all running Lpg on small cars, they same cost reductions apply it's more down to the mileage or total fuel expenditure, don't know about the TF and I know what you're saying about payback but converting a smaller car could be more simple and cheaper, also converting a modern classic gives it much more sustainable longevity, mite even be more engine/head gasket friendly too!!

Funny story bout the red potatoes so that's why some farmers get them from then!!

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Re: E10 fuel

#5 Post by Brian_H » Thu Jul 15, 2021 9:53 pm

Theres info on it here > https://www.gov.uk/guidance/e10-petrol-explained Inlcuding a vehicle checker

Theres a few more recent cars (lots from the VW group including my mothers car!) that aren't compatible. Most of them are simply materials in the fuel system (typically o-rings) will degrade with E10 fuel. The problem with anything from the Rover group, is no info is available to say one way or the other as Rover no longer exists as a company. So they might be compatible, or might not. The problem is that if they aren't compatible you risk finding fuel leaking at some point, which depending how you discover it could be a problem or a disaster. Best case you smell petrol when you shouldn't and investigate whats going on. Worst case you have a fire.....

That said, the offical advice if you fill something thats not supposed to have E10 with E10 seems to be use it up and refill with E5 next time, so they don't seem that concerned about it.

Converting smaller cars takes longer to pay back - as the difference in cost is minimal of the parts, and the labour is likely identical. Plus smaller cars have less space for a tank. Though on the flip side, a smaller fuel capacity isn't so much of a problem when you can get more miles out of the tank.

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Re: E10 fuel

#6 Post by Gazza487 » Fri Jul 16, 2021 8:42 pm

Brian that is very interesting re. the congestion charging. It appears ok, what are they basing it on as I was lead to believe it was which euro class it fell into?

The ethanol in fuel stabilising, water I suppose we can get around with sealed tanks on more modern vehicles and making sure it is used in good time. I was wondering if there was some additive (sorry not a chemist by any stretch of the imagination) but something along the lines of an oil or film that could work to coat / protect seals that wouldn’t interfere with spray patterns or block jets up etc

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Re: E10 fuel

#7 Post by Pinger » Fri Jul 16, 2021 8:54 pm

I've heard that the premium fuels will remain at 5% ethanol concentration. Pricy, but if only used for cold start and prevents fuel system damage probably worth it and additives/stabilisers will come at a cost anyway. Not sure if Tesco Momentum is to remain at 5% but worth checking as it is a lot cheaper than Shell, BP, etc's premium fuels.

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Re: E10 fuel

#8 Post by Brian_H » Fri Jul 16, 2021 10:22 pm

The official line is premium or super grade petrol will be E5 for the forseeable future. Thats referenced on the page linked to earlier as the workaround if you can't use E10. So yes you could use that. Though really, doubtful it would be much of a problem if you use it up in a reasonable time anyway. Fuel seems to stay ok stored in the car tank a lot longer than a mower for example.

Incidently just filled up a car at Asda and the pumps there have changed to E10 labels already.

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Re: E10 fuel

#9 Post by Gazza487 » Sun Sep 19, 2021 7:19 pm

Well but of an update now it’s in.

MG6 (that has lpg) does not like starting on e10. Pop some Sainsbury’s super in and we are back to normal. Cold start, it shudders and shakes for the 1st of the day. This engine always had trouble with fuels (think it’s the tune in the euro 5 to be honest rather than a problem with the Kavachi / k series).

Yamaha mt07 seems fine, 1st tank of e10 and it had an odd pop and splitter once then all was normal. Prepping for the winter so will run on super.

Mg tf - not needed to or been brave enough to try yet, don’t think I will until I need to.

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