Advice please!

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Gilbertd
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Re: Advice please!

#201 Post by Gilbertd » Wed Jul 22, 2020 1:54 pm

The R90S is just the high power version of the R90E (strictly speaking, it's an R90E Super). The older ones used to come in two versions, the normal one and the high power one, the later ones are all the same and can run at far more than the 190 bhp they seem to quote. Nearly everything from Italy is rated at 190 bhp for some reason (even though it is capable og much more) although I was once told that the Italians can't understand putting LPG on a car with a big engine. They convert small engined cars to get 100mpg and work on the principle that if you can afford to buy a large engined car, you can afford to run it. For a time the R90E wasn't available and I fitted the BRC AT90E to mine (recommended as a straight swap by Tinley Tech) and when I queried the fact it was only rated for 190 bhp, I was told it's capable of far more than that. I've since proved that it is..... I suspect the rating is something to do with the Italian car tax scheme, they tax very heavily anything with an engine over 2 litres and in some cases, cars were produced for the Italian market with a 2 litre engine when every other country got a 2.5 or 2.8.
96 Saab 900XS, AEB Leo, sold
93 Range Rover 4.2LSE, Lovato LovEco, sold
97 Range Rover 4.0SE, multipoint, sold
98 Ex-Police Range Rover 4.0, AEB Leo, daily motor
96 Range Rover 4.6HSE Ascot, AEB Leo, my spare


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Pinger
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Re: Advice please!

#202 Post by Pinger » Wed Jul 22, 2020 6:53 pm

I'm just wary of the 190hp rating as that is some 70hp shy of where I want/need to be.
I notice that 190hp is for the BRC AT90E and the OMVL R90E doesn't quote hp but 'up to 6 litres'

I take it the R90E repair kit wont fit my R90S?

Gilbertd
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Re: Advice please!

#203 Post by Gilbertd » Wed Jul 22, 2020 7:54 pm

Yes it will. You have an R90E Super rather than a R90E standard. The BRC one is capable of supplying way over 190 bhp despite what the spec says.
96 Saab 900XS, AEB Leo, sold
93 Range Rover 4.2LSE, Lovato LovEco, sold
97 Range Rover 4.0SE, multipoint, sold
98 Ex-Police Range Rover 4.0, AEB Leo, daily motor
96 Range Rover 4.6HSE Ascot, AEB Leo, my spare


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Pinger
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Re: Advice please!

#204 Post by Pinger » Wed Jul 22, 2020 8:09 pm

Gilbertd wrote:
Wed Jul 22, 2020 7:54 pm
Yes it will.
Is that yes the R90E repair kit will fit my R90S?

classicswede
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Re: Advice please!

#205 Post by classicswede » Wed Jul 22, 2020 8:26 pm

Some engines spark all cylinders on start up and that can cause a backfire, there is anyway more risk of a backfire at cranking speeds
http://www.classicswede.co.uk/LPG/cat17 ... 10800.aspx

LPG installer Anglesey North Wales

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Gilbertd
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Re: Advice please!

#206 Post by Gilbertd » Wed Jul 22, 2020 8:33 pm

Pinger wrote:
Wed Jul 22, 2020 8:09 pm
Is that yes the R90E repair kit will fit my R90S?
Yes it will fit.
96 Saab 900XS, AEB Leo, sold
93 Range Rover 4.2LSE, Lovato LovEco, sold
97 Range Rover 4.0SE, multipoint, sold
98 Ex-Police Range Rover 4.0, AEB Leo, daily motor
96 Range Rover 4.6HSE Ascot, AEB Leo, my spare


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Pinger
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Re: Advice please!

#207 Post by Pinger » Wed Jul 22, 2020 8:36 pm

classicswede wrote:
Wed Jul 22, 2020 8:26 pm
Some engines spark all cylinders on start up and that can cause a backfire, there is anyway more risk of a backfire at cranking speeds
All five of mine have been on opening the throttle and are lean mixture related. After the last one, it took a few seconds for the engine to run on all cylinders again.
I really don't like them. I was once told that an R1 engine (with stiff valve springs for the high rpm it turns) will open an inlet valve under 15psi of boost. I fear a valve being pushed open and its rocker missing the pushrod on the way back.

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Re: Advice please!

#208 Post by Pinger » Wed Jul 22, 2020 8:42 pm

Gilbertd wrote:
Wed Jul 22, 2020 8:33 pm

Yes it will fit.
Perfect! Than I'll order the OMVL repair kit and rebuild it.
Another thought I had re wear is that the truck has only done 40,000 miles not all of them on LPG as the previous owner didn't have an LPG station close to where they lived and just ran it on petrol. The conversion to LPG was in 2002 so in the intervening 18 years that the elastomers have gone wobbly isn't a surprise. How many miles it covered between 1999 and 2002 is unknown but for certain it hasn't done the whole 40,000 miles on LPG.

Gilbertd
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Re: Advice please!

#209 Post by Gilbertd » Wed Jul 22, 2020 10:29 pm

At 18 years old, I suspect unless it's been kept nice and warm and dry, the bolts holding it together will be seized in and at least some of them will shear off. In all honesty, rather than buying the overhaul kit then finding the bolts shear off or it doesn't cure the problem, I'd just put a new one on. This https://tinleytech.co.uk/shop/lpg-parts ... er-901504/ is the high output version that is the modern equivalent to the one you have. I've got the R90E I took off mine (also a high output version) but it was getting tired so I just replaced it rather than messing around rebuilding it.
96 Saab 900XS, AEB Leo, sold
93 Range Rover 4.2LSE, Lovato LovEco, sold
97 Range Rover 4.0SE, multipoint, sold
98 Ex-Police Range Rover 4.0, AEB Leo, daily motor
96 Range Rover 4.6HSE Ascot, AEB Leo, my spare


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Pinger
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Re: Advice please!

#210 Post by Pinger » Thu Jul 23, 2020 9:41 am

That's the one I was looking at - and I think I'll order it (came so very close to ordering the repair kit last night!).
Your point re bolts is valid. They don't look so bad but until the spanners are out.....
Just out of interest, what gives the R90s its superior flow capability? Is it something as simple as a larger external chamber that I can swap over from my R90S to a new R90E?

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Re: Advice please!

#211 Post by Pinger » Thu Jul 23, 2020 11:42 am

Duly ordered it will be here tomorrow. The power valve arrived earlier in the week.
Once installed, how long should I expect to spend setting it up?

Gilbertd
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Re: Advice please!

#212 Post by Gilbertd » Thu Jul 23, 2020 6:39 pm

If the mixer has been correctly sized for the engine airflow, it will be about right straight from the box. It might need the top screw adjusting slightly but not by much. If I remember right, one screw is marked Idle so you would expect it to be the idle bypass but that is wrong and it isn't (obviously lost something in translation from Italian). Simple enough to identify which is which, the idle bypass, the one that dribbles a small amount of gas in at idle, will be the one that is screwed fully home (and wants to stay that way).
96 Saab 900XS, AEB Leo, sold
93 Range Rover 4.2LSE, Lovato LovEco, sold
97 Range Rover 4.0SE, multipoint, sold
98 Ex-Police Range Rover 4.0, AEB Leo, daily motor
96 Range Rover 4.6HSE Ascot, AEB Leo, my spare


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Pinger
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Re: Advice please!

#213 Post by Pinger » Thu Jul 23, 2020 6:51 pm

Gilbertd wrote:
Thu Jul 23, 2020 6:39 pm
If the mixer has been correctly sized for the engine airflow, it will be about right straight from the box. It might need the top screw adjusting slightly but not by much. If I remember right, one screw is marked Idle so you would expect it to be the idle bypass but that is wrong and it isn't (obviously lost something in translation from Italian). Simple enough to identify which is which, the idle bypass, the one that dribbles a small amount of gas in at idle, will be the one that is screwed fully home (and wants to stay that way).
Thanks.
Despite my concerns when I arrived on this forum - I think the mixer is sized correctly - or close enough for now.

Am I right in thinking that with 3000-4000rpm and no load, with power valve at 1/3 open and the any adjustment made on it and the mixer to set the actuator default to around 80, that come replacement of the PV with the actuator, WOT full load running (all the way to the red line) will be accommodated by the actuator going as far as it has to and that once that setting is established I (optionally) set the out of idle above default setting to just slightly higher?
Or do I have to do said full load running with PV installed and adjust as before to attain an actuator default setting of around 80?

Gilbertd
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Re: Advice please!

#214 Post by Gilbertd » Thu Jul 23, 2020 9:33 pm

Power valve at 1/3rd open, start engine let it idle and look at the software. It will try to get the mixture spot on by adjusting the actuator but as the actuator isn't being used it won't have any affect. Adjust the power valve to get the actuator so it sits somewhere around 80-100 when the lambda switches from lean to rich or vice versa at idle, then open the throttle and again look at what the actuator does. If it opens up, then it is rich at idle, if it closes it is lean. Hopefully it will be at roughly the same actuator opening. If it isn't, then you need to adjust the vaporiser. If it is richer (actuator at a lower level) at idle than at out of idle, screw the bias screw on the vaporiser in a touch (only a touch), if it is leaner, screw it out.

Then take the power valve out and put the actuator back in. Do the same test as you did before, noting the mid point of the actuator travel at idle and out of idle. From that you should be able to fine tune the vaporiser screw to get the actuator opening the same or at least very close, at idle and out of idle. The actuator should then stay at that same level right through the rev range, it doesn't open up at WOT. The more throttle you give it the more air is pulled in which pulls in more fuel so the mixture stays correct. So if the actuator is at 90 at idle and 85 at out of idle, it will stay at 85 right through the rev range. Don't get hung up on the actual number, anything between about 65 and 150 is fine, although 80-100 is better, it is what it does when you go from idle to open throttle that is important.
96 Saab 900XS, AEB Leo, sold
93 Range Rover 4.2LSE, Lovato LovEco, sold
97 Range Rover 4.0SE, multipoint, sold
98 Ex-Police Range Rover 4.0, AEB Leo, daily motor
96 Range Rover 4.6HSE Ascot, AEB Leo, my spare


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Pinger
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Re: Advice please!

#215 Post by Pinger » Fri Jul 24, 2020 9:01 am

Thanks Gilbertd - this looks achievable in a short time span.
I am absolutely aiming for the actuator being slightly more open at idle than out of idle.

When I replaced the hose between reducer and mixer and relocated my actuator I noticed the actuator was closed. Presumably it immediately goes to its default position when the LPG electrics are energised prior to cranking to start. Will a lower actuator position impact on my cold starting (as for now I am compelled to start on LPG) and the idle screw as we know has been allowing a lot of gas through? Or might that even have been negatively impacting on my cold starting given that the morning it wouldn't start was remedied by screwing in the bias screw (which appeared to have unscrewed itself a 1/4 turn) ie, as it is it is too rich during cranking?

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Re: Advice please!

#216 Post by Gilbertd » Fri Jul 24, 2020 10:55 am

Yes, the actuator always closes when not running but opens up to the default as soon as it sees pulses on the rpm wire to tell it the engine is turning. Starting on a richer mixture than is needed usually is harder unless you floor the throttle to get as much air in as possible, so getting it right may improve your starting on gas.
96 Saab 900XS, AEB Leo, sold
93 Range Rover 4.2LSE, Lovato LovEco, sold
97 Range Rover 4.0SE, multipoint, sold
98 Ex-Police Range Rover 4.0, AEB Leo, daily motor
96 Range Rover 4.6HSE Ascot, AEB Leo, my spare


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Pinger
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Re: Advice please!

#217 Post by Pinger » Fri Jul 24, 2020 12:09 pm

Rich mixture non start was a surprise when it happened.

What about above and below steps?
Currently with a default around 160 my out of idle steps are plus and minus 40 - which equates to+- 25% of default. Same percentage of whatever default value I arrive at?
Looking at your video, your out of idle above steps is quite high. Is there a reason for this and should I be aiming for the same?

Currently, my idle is zero above, 85 below - for reasons now understood. Do I want to narrow that down either side of default to limit the oscillation between rich and lean as shown by the O2 readiings?

Gilbertd
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Re: Advice please!

#218 Post by Gilbertd » Fri Jul 24, 2020 6:16 pm

I set the out of idle above steps higher so if it starts to go lean for any reason, it has some headroom to prevent lean running. Running lean when cruising at 75 mph for 200 miles a time isn't a good idea and without running with the laptop sitting in the passenger footwell so I can see what it is doing doesn't go down well with the passenger (or the laptop).

Get it so the default in both states are right before worrying about the steps.
96 Saab 900XS, AEB Leo, sold
93 Range Rover 4.2LSE, Lovato LovEco, sold
97 Range Rover 4.0SE, multipoint, sold
98 Ex-Police Range Rover 4.0, AEB Leo, daily motor
96 Range Rover 4.6HSE Ascot, AEB Leo, my spare


Proud member of the YCHJCYA2PDTHFH club.

Pinger
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Re: Advice please!

#219 Post by Pinger » Fri Jul 24, 2020 6:41 pm

Gilbertd wrote:
Fri Jul 24, 2020 6:16 pm
I set the out of idle above steps higher so if it starts to go lean for any reason, it has some headroom to prevent lean running. Running lean when cruising at 75 mph for 200 miles a time isn't a good idea and without running with the laptop sitting in the passenger footwell so I can see what it is doing doesn't go down well with the passenger (or the laptop).
I thought that would be the reason. It's the below steps I'm wary of.
Gilbertd wrote:
Fri Jul 24, 2020 6:16 pm
Get it so the default in both states are right before worrying about the steps.
Reducer arrived today. Should have it fitted and running on Monday.

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Re: Advice please!

#220 Post by Pinger » Wed Jul 29, 2020 6:02 pm

Reducer fitted but calibration not without problems.
I should mention first that I spoke to Tinley Tech to clarify which adjustment screw was which and also asked advice in the event of the truck not starting as my petrol system is down. Unexpectedly, I was told that I may have to back the bias screw out quite a bit - as many as four turns and to open the bypass a touch to enable starting.

It wouldn't fire up on LPG but by some miracle the petrol system decided it would work today so started on that. It wouldn't however entertain idling when switched to LPG until the the bypass and bias screws were adjusted. I then had to lean off on the bypass and enrichen on the bias to get it to idle and take throttle.

The PV was set about a third open and I opened up the above and below steps for both idle and out of idle (on the basis that I didn't want them set where they were when the aim was to get a default below their settings) via the lap top.

Hooked up the lap top and with much juggling with the PV and the bias the ECU was sending the actuator to 250 where it would sit until I weakened the bias (a touch - no more) then it would close to zero where it would remain until I richened with the bias (a touch - no more) and this repeated endlessly - until the software froze and the lap top could only be retrieved with a hard switch off. At no point did I see the red and green bands and often, though the actuator was showing wide open - and physically was wide open - with the bias screw a fair way out and opening the PV also - the O2 reading was at its lowest.
Incidentally, when it was running on petrol, the O2 readings were swinging about just as you would expect them to.

In the end, I ditched the lap top and just read the actuator by physically looking at it and in both idle and out of idle conditions and managed to juggle the bias and the PV to get it to sit mid way - despite the PV when I removed it being quite a bit more closed than that.

I think, I got to that point where the actuator is a bit more open at idle than at out of idle.

Test drove it and it is generally good but a little flat around the 4000rpm point - kind of hangs there - like it did with the old prior to emptying it of its gloop. In neutral it is taking throttle well without hesitation or any threat of backfire. Overall, I'd be quite happy but for it feeling a bit flat under load. Responsive to the throttle but then a touch flat.

First question relates to software - is what I've described at all common? Is there something I am doing wrong?
I don'd understand the wide scale swing zero to 250 and back again repeated endlessly of the actuator with the PV in place. Should I have restricted that range? When all the signs (O2) were that it was running lean, when I opened up the PV or the bias setting it would bring the engine to the point of stalling and on the way there had that classic rich lopiness - not even (as in steady) leanness heading for backfire.

Tomorrow I need to check that it starts on LPG from cold (when warm it's doing it very promptly - much much faster than before) and will try the lap top again with the actuator in place.

My current thoughts are it is running a touch lean out of idle (esp high rpm) but when I tried other settings (withe the PV in place) it would push the actuator to fully closed. Do I now need to try tuning it again with the actuator in place via the bias and bypass adjustments? Throughout the lap top being connected, it showed the default setting of 177 which was where it was with the old reducer. It also retained all the previous settings (despite the battery being removed for ease of access while replacing the reducer).

Apologies for being so long winded, but perhaps someone can make sense of what's going on and/or pinpoint one (or more!) thing I've possibly done wrong. Given what I've read from Gilbertd, I didn't expect to have to move the bias screw very much if at all. But, I've also read the new R90E's out of the box need more adjusting than the previous models, Tinley expected me to, and it wouldn't run until I did.

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