l320 reducer options?

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mgrover
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Re: l320 reducer options?

#41 Post by mgrover » Thu Jun 11, 2020 11:20 pm

LPGC wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 7:26 pm
You can sometimes reset learned (and mis-learned) values such as fuel trims by disconnecting a petrol injector, start the engine to provoke injector disconnected OBD codes, turn the engine off, reconnect the injector and clear OBD codes. Petrol injectors on these engines are difficult to access but you can disable a full cylinder bank of 4 petrol injectors by disconnecting the injector bank's multi-plug (one at each side behind charge coolers).

Don't read much into fuel trims before things have settled down (self tests / IM readiness have been passed) - the standard model for fuel trims (the way we usually think of the way they work) isn't always the way they actually work on some vehicles, especially before things have settled down. In my last post I suggested a way of helping 'settling down' and I've just added to that in this post (above).

You could have a poorly MAF though? Are the oxygen sensors the correct part? Is the standard air filter fitted or something aftermarket like a K&N cone?
ill give the reset a shot. i think first ama dump in some new plugs since these are looking orangey lean anyway. then reset trims. maf seems fine, i did replace with a cheap one, but ama just fork out for a denso one and be done with it.

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Re: l320 reducer options?

#42 Post by LPGC » Fri Jun 12, 2020 11:21 am

Supercharged Rangerovers are a vehicle I'd advise fitting original spec engine sensors on because the engine management system is fussy.
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Re: l320 reducer options?

#43 Post by mgrover » Sun Jun 28, 2020 12:13 pm

LPGC wrote:
Fri Jun 12, 2020 11:21 am
Supercharged Rangerovers are a vehicle I'd advise fitting original spec engine sensors on because the engine management system is fussy.
100% correct as usual :P Once the denso maf went in. the lean codes started to disappear one by one. so far on petrol no lean codes at all. also the high fuel pressure code disappeared all by itself which would point to a snagged fuel line thats freed itself.

i havent ran it on lpg since i cleared all adaptations and relearned the trims. i want to fix a misfire ive been having on cylinder 1. only ever occurs at 3k rpm, not 2k rpm or 4k rpm. ive swapped coils and plugs around and havent moved the problem.but for now it'll do

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Re: l320 reducer options?

#44 Post by LPGC » Mon Jun 29, 2020 8:31 am

mgrover wrote:
Sun Jun 28, 2020 12:13 pm
LPGC wrote:
Fri Jun 12, 2020 11:21 am
Supercharged Rangerovers are a vehicle I'd advise fitting original spec engine sensors on because the engine management system is fussy.
100% correct as usual :P Once the denso maf went in. the lean codes started to disappear one by one. so far on petrol no lean codes at all. also the high fuel pressure code disappeared all by itself which would point to a snagged fuel line thats freed itself.

i havent ran it on lpg since i cleared all adaptations and relearned the trims. i want to fix a misfire ive been having on cylinder 1. only ever occurs at 3k rpm, not 2k rpm or 4k rpm. ive swapped coils and plugs around and havent moved the problem.but for now it'll do
Thanks.

I doubt the high fuel pressure codes were due to a snagged fuel line that's freed itself. I think it's more likely that the high pressure codes were related to the dodgy MAF sensor.. the higher the engine load the higher the commanded fuel pressure, behind the scenes the ECU may partly base commanded fuel pressure on MAF readings. Or just the fact you haven't been using the LPG system could account for no fuel pressure codes if there's some sort of problem with the fuel return.

When you reset adaptions are you sure they were reset for the conditions where you're getting the misfire? 3000rpm but at what engine load?

If you run the engine at near the point it misfires (i.e. same vacuum/boost but slightly lower or higher rpm, or same rpm but slightly different vacuum/boost) it may help steer trims for the point at which the misfire occurs.. If the misfire is caused by poor fuelling due to incorrect trims this may help cure the misfire.

Simon
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Re: l320 reducer options?

#45 Post by mgrover » Thu Jul 02, 2020 10:16 am

LPGC wrote:
Mon Jun 29, 2020 8:31 am
mgrover wrote:
Sun Jun 28, 2020 12:13 pm
LPGC wrote:
Fri Jun 12, 2020 11:21 am
Supercharged Rangerovers are a vehicle I'd advise fitting original spec engine sensors on because the engine management system is fussy.
100% correct as usual :P Once the denso maf went in. the lean codes started to disappear one by one. so far on petrol no lean codes at all. also the high fuel pressure code disappeared all by itself which would point to a snagged fuel line thats freed itself.

i havent ran it on lpg since i cleared all adaptations and relearned the trims. i want to fix a misfire ive been having on cylinder 1. only ever occurs at 3k rpm, not 2k rpm or 4k rpm. ive swapped coils and plugs around and havent moved the problem.but for now it'll do
Thanks.

I doubt the high fuel pressure codes were due to a snagged fuel line that's freed itself. I think it's more likely that the high pressure codes were related to the dodgy MAF sensor.. the higher the engine load the higher the commanded fuel pressure, behind the scenes the ECU may partly base commanded fuel pressure on MAF readings. Or just the fact you haven't been using the LPG system could account for no fuel pressure codes if there's some sort of problem with the fuel return.

When you reset adaptions are you sure they were reset for the conditions where you're getting the misfire? 3000rpm but at what engine load?

If you run the engine at near the point it misfires (i.e. same vacuum/boost but slightly lower or higher rpm, or same rpm but slightly different vacuum/boost) it may help steer trims for the point at which the misfire occurs.. If the misfire is caused by poor fuelling due to incorrect trims this may help cure the misfire.

Simon
Could be? They only ever appeared under the AC STAG system. I assume the BRC system was doing something to deal with them, most likely emulation.

The codes went away when I was still running it under LPG tbh and before I changed the MAF sensor. So not too sure? Maybe the trims got to a point where it wasn't as big a deal?

3000rpm just being in parked or neutral, if you just hold 3000 rpm via either neutral, or shifting to an appropriate gear the misfire counter starts to rise.

At the moment am waiting to install new reducer, MAGIC Jet Power III. New AC STAG W02 BFC injectors as well since these current ones can't seem to keep up and are throwing staying open codes.

At the moment I dont want to run lpg and move the trims too lean again. I'd rather get it re-calibrated to ensure its following as closely as possible the petrol.

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Re: l320 reducer options?

#46 Post by LPGC » Thu Jul 02, 2020 11:30 am

I wouldn't advise Stag injectors for your install (or for most other installs either for that matter!), I'd go with MajicJet (original tall version rather than FX).

I forget which Stag ECU you have (is it Qbox etc)? Check in your LPG calibration if there are any settings like RPM / ISA correction enabled... If so disable them and clear adapted values and/or RPM correction figures.

Poor running at 3000rpm may be due to adapted/learned values for RPM correction etc (addressed in my line above), and/or may be due to injectors pulsing below the minimum duration at which they can correctly meter gas. We can expect injectors to be pulsing at lowest duration during over-run and fast idle conditions (such as 3000rpm in neutral), if this is the issue fitting good injectors can help because good injectors can correctly meter gas at shorter duration than poor injectors. Of course, the problem at 3000rpm in neutral could also be caused by incorrect base calibration (multiplier).

Iirc your original install has BRC injectors? If they are 'proper' BRC injectors they're also good at metering gas at low pulse duration but if they're GFI injectors (sometimes badged as BRC) they're very poor at correctly metering gas at low pulse duration.

There's a chance poor running at 3000rpm could be due to something happening to fuel (petrol) pressure under these conditions... have you checked fuel pressure readings when the misfires occur?

Simon
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mgrover
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Re: l320 reducer options?

#47 Post by mgrover » Thu Jul 02, 2020 5:01 pm

LPGC wrote:
Thu Jul 02, 2020 11:30 am
I wouldn't advise Stag injectors for your install (or for most other installs either for that matter!), I'd go with MajicJet (original tall version rather than FX).

I forget which Stag ECU you have (is it Qbox etc)? Check in your LPG calibration if there are any settings like RPM / ISA correction enabled... If so disable them and clear adapted values and/or RPM correction figures.

Poor running at 3000rpm may be due to adapted/learned values for RPM correction etc (addressed in my line above), and/or may be due to injectors pulsing below the minimum duration at which they can correctly meter gas. We can expect injectors to be pulsing at lowest duration during over-run and fast idle conditions (such as 3000rpm in neutral), if this is the issue fitting good injectors can help because good injectors can correctly meter gas at shorter duration than poor injectors. Of course, the problem at 3000rpm in neutral could also be caused by incorrect base calibration (multiplier).

Iirc your original install has BRC injectors? If they are 'proper' BRC injectors they're also good at metering gas at low pulse duration but if they're GFI injectors (sometimes badged as BRC) they're very poor at correctly metering gas at low pulse duration.

There's a chance poor running at 3000rpm could be due to something happening to fuel (petrol) pressure under these conditions... have you checked fuel pressure readings when the misfires occur?

Simon
stag qbox basic is the installation.

at the moment lpg isn't running at all. strictly petrol, but i guess i can diagnose the petrol problem by running lpg, then seeing if it misfires at 3k rpm as well. odd thing is it stops at 4k rpm so could it point to petrol injectors being clogged in a weird way.

this is the injector rail https://www.lpgshop.co.uk/4cyl-brc-mtm- ... tors-rail/ so i assume matching injectors?

i switched to lpg today, the misfires occur both on petrol and lpg.

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Re: l320 reducer options?

#48 Post by LPGC » Thu Jul 02, 2020 5:48 pm

I doubt petrol injectors are clogged.

Like I said before... check fuel trims and watch for pending error codes while skirting around 3000rpm so as not to let the misfire occur. It may just be that fuel trims need to be re-learned.

You linked to an empty rail lol.. but it seems your injectors will be BRC's own as opposed to GFI. You'd be far better off with the LPG injectors you've got than switching to Stag injectors, or if you reckon your injectors are worn switching to MagicJet.
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Re: l320 reducer options?

#49 Post by mgrover » Thu Jul 02, 2020 7:01 pm

LPGC wrote:
Thu Jul 02, 2020 5:48 pm
I doubt petrol injectors are clogged.

Like I said before... check fuel trims and watch for pending error codes while skirting around 3000rpm so as not to let the misfire occur. It may just be that fuel trims need to be re-learned.

You linked to an empty rail lol.. but it seems your injectors will be BRC's own as opposed to GFI. You'd be far better off with the LPG injectors you've got than switching to Stag injectors, or if you reckon your injectors are worn switching to MagicJet.
ahh haha, cant seem to make any codes appear aside from misfire codes.

my only niggle, is that, could this be VSR? I supposedly had the valve seats replaced with hardened valve seats and new valves but i wasn't in the garage with the guy so who knows. Or the hardened valve seats have already given out on cylinder 1. Or would VSR present in a different way?

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Re: l320 reducer options?

#50 Post by mgrover » Tue Jul 07, 2020 10:37 am

so i fitted the MAGIC Jet 3 POWER yesturday and wow. That reducer is miles ahead of the KME Extreme, the throttle response in general feels so much better, like it feels exactly like petrol. the pressure never drops below 1 under hard acceleration.

although the system seems to switch to petrol under hard acceleration but its not indicated as a failure? the light just flashes rather than beeping. but, this hasnt been calibrated in anyway really, so its running off whatever map was setup for the KME Extreme. I would use the autocalibaration map but it doesn't seem to cope as well.

what I don't understand is how does a reducer that costs about £50 less work so much better?

the injectors are HANA 2000 RED btw.

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Re: l320 reducer options?

#51 Post by mgrover » Sat Jul 11, 2020 6:36 pm

i double checked my current injectors, their actually the BRC super yellow injectors.

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Re: l320 reducer options?

#52 Post by LPGC » Sat Jul 11, 2020 8:46 pm

mgrover wrote:
Tue Jul 07, 2020 10:37 am
so i fitted the MAGIC Jet 3 POWER yesturday and wow. That reducer is miles ahead of the KME Extreme, the throttle response in general feels so much better, like it feels exactly like petrol. the pressure never drops below 1 under hard acceleration.

although the system seems to switch to petrol under hard acceleration but its not indicated as a failure? the light just flashes rather than beeping. but, this hasnt been calibrated in anyway really, so its running off whatever map was setup for the KME Extreme. I would use the autocalibaration map but it doesn't seem to cope as well.

what I don't understand is how does a reducer that costs about £50 less work so much better?

the injectors are HANA 2000 RED btw.
When it comes to LPG components you can bet the cheapest component in it's type will be garbage, the most expensive component in it's type will probably at least be OK (not necessarily the best) but will be overpriced, everything in-between will have it's price set more by hype, misinformation, misunderstanding and sometimes by outdated comparisons than by real world performance or reliability. Most reviews are done by people who don't know how to compare components or have a vested interest... Even for someone who thoroughly understand all the aspects and knew what spec they wanted parts selection would be a minefield without prior experience. I very much like KME ECU's (especially Nevo) and I quite like KME Silver reducers.. but only the Silver and the Silver has the wrong spec for your install.

Do you mean you currently have BRC Yellow injectors but plan to fit Hana red (older Hana, pre-Gold)?

What pressure is your reducer currently set at?

The yellow light on the switch flashes (and the system reverts to running on petrol) when the ECU notices injectors are running at full duty cycle (the injectors don't have time to close and open again in time for the next injection cycle). This can happen if the calibration is too rich or if the injectors don't flow enough. If the injectors don't flow enough it can be due to too small nozzle size and/or too little pressure and/or (less likely) the injectors are fully saturated (for want of a better term) - the design won't flow enough gas regardless of nozzle size, perhaps due to internal restrictions.. they would probably flow enough if it were possible to increase pressure enough but such pressure might be above the range that the reducer can supply, might be above the level at which the injectors would be able to open, might be so high that gas would remain a liquid in the vapour pipes supplying the injectors.
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Re: l320 reducer options?

#53 Post by mgrover » Sun Jul 12, 2020 5:39 pm

I've got a weird bug back. Bank 1 is running lean at times but not Bank two, so maybe slightly clogged injectors?

This injector https://www.lpgshop.co.uk/brc-in03-my09 ... -injector/ on an mtm rail.

I planned to fit AC Stag WF02 BFC. The current installed injectors should have quite a big nozzle anyway but who knows I haven't looked. I do get errors about the fully duty cycle thing, they can't open and close fast enough to keep up.

Reducer is set to 1.3-1.4 in terms of pressure

I was on long drive other day and it started to misfire quite badly and triggered the knock sensor. But only seems to happen on low tank tbf.

Also I have intelligent pressure drop enabled option

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