Service or replace

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The dealers dream
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Service or replace

#1 Post by The dealers dream » Mon Oct 14, 2019 7:09 pm

Hi all.
I was a regular visitor back in 2015 with a necam vaux.
Recently bought a P38 4.6 bosch.

It has a poorly lpg. I am wondering if I should replace the front end (and tank sllenoid) or rebuild the current system. Mot records and installation receipt suggest it has done 10k and is five years old.

The ecu has the word nova on it and has been smeared with sealent. The reducer has a gold coloured core and is stamped kme red.

The liquid line is only 6mm (but kme website suggests this is OK?)

The injector solenoids are unbranded and sound too noisy for 10k of use.

So experts (especially Simon and gilbert), should I rebiild this reducer and replace the injectors or (as I hope to keep the car) replace this cheap looking kit with a good brand?

What is known to work well on bosch P38?

Many thanks

K

Brian_H
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Re: Service or replace

#2 Post by Brian_H » Mon Oct 14, 2019 7:24 pm

Might help to identify the kit a bit better to give some idea of what your looking at - the forum now allows uploading of photos directly, if you can get some photos of the injectors that would give those who can help some idea of what your looking at. Its also helpful to see how its installed - on the Thor (Bosch) engines there are a few options for connection of the injectors, some of which may work, but not necessarily very well.

Could you define runs poorly - lack of acceleration? random misfires? unpredictable performance/hesitation? Any idea of fault codes being logged?

P38 wise you might want to check out https://rangerovers.pub/ as well - Many of the same folk on here and there just in case its something a bit more p38 and less LPG stuff you want to ask about.

The dealers dream
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Re: Service or replace

#3 Post by The dealers dream » Mon Oct 14, 2019 9:25 pm

Hi brian
The injectors are just nasty generic types. The name on the ecu suggests this is a nevo kme system.
Before I spend any money or time on it, I wanted to check if this cheap kit is worth the effort.
I suspect our site installers may suggest it is better to bin it and start from scratch.

It accelerates well and works for 15 odd miles before struggling. Previous owner has replaced filters in an attempt to resolve the issue. Sealent on the ecu case is enouugh to make me want to bin it
Thanks

K

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Re: Service or replace

#4 Post by LPGC » Mon Oct 14, 2019 10:17 pm

I regard Nevo as the best all round LPG ECU ever made, never known one's case leak but sealant on it doesn't seem promising.
KME Gold reducers can give some hassles.
Unlikely I wouldn't know the brand of 'unbranded' injectors if I saw a pic.

In worst case scenario the ECU, reducer and injectors would all be broken but that's very unlikely. Even then I'd advise keeping the loom, plugging a new ECU into the loom, swap the reducer and swap the injectors. Any other scenario and you'd only be swapping some of those bits, if the loom hasn't been fitted properly you could fit it properly with no more work than fitting new.
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Re: Service or replace

#5 Post by Brian_H » Tue Oct 15, 2019 11:15 am

The KME Nevo is generally quite good - I've got 3 vehicles now all on that series of kit (2 of them 4 cylinders, the other a V8 Disco). If you suspect the ecu has been messed with, it may be worth taking it off and having a good look at it on a table to see why its been sealed back up. Don't think you can get the KME ecus separately from the loom, least not from what shopping around I've done.

I've not got a reducer of theirs so can't comment on that, but is there a reason for rebuilding it at this stage? They generally start leaking (either gas into vacuum, gas into water or gas or water to outside) and thats a reason for rebuilding them at that point.

Injectors wise, all of mine are using the OVML fast Reg ones - the ones with the blue plastic coils. Got no complaints on those. Not particually expensive, but reliable, not known them to be noisy except for if they are touching something they shouldn't be (the two rubber bungs missing might account for noise though)

Where are your injectors connected to on the manifold? If its the tubes at the top of the manifold (the bunches of bananas) then there is a possibility you have injectors and banks swapped over from where they should be, which can cause issues. Its better if you can get them onto the lower manifold if possible as this makes wiring simpler and means they are closer to the petrol injectors.

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Re: Service or replace

#6 Post by The dealers dream » Tue Oct 15, 2019 3:45 pm

Thanks guys, that's great to know. I will keep the nevo.
I will replace the injectors just because they ~sound wrong~.
I want a new ecu, keeping the old one as a spare.

The reducer has a gold colour core but is stamped with the word ~red ~ Is this a ~gold~?

kme say 6mm supply is OK, does the forum agree?

I'd like to rebuild the reducer as its 5 years old and unknown history.

Also not sure about the reducer and ecu vacuum sensor being teed. Would prefer two separate hoses at different points in the manifold.

Time to download some software and take a look.

Gut feeling for the current problem is shut off solinoids or reducer - happy to be wrong.

Thanks again, will post image of injection points.

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Re: Service or replace

#7 Post by The dealers dream » Mon Oct 21, 2019 2:16 pm

Embarrassing.....

It appears that when the guage indicates empty, that is because the tank is...... You guessed it..... Empty!

I didn't think the tank was empty because I had just topped it off and the car was cutting out rather than switching back to petrol.

A problem with the float is shutting off the 80 (100)l tank at 28 litres.

The self calibrating display feature of the nevo results in the guage scaling nicely between 0 and 100% with only a small amount of fuel.

I will buy a new multivalve before removing the old one (and will make sure it is the correct angle).

So, should I use this as an opportunity to change to 8mm pipe or is 6 really enough for the job?

I will post in problems for the cut out rather than change over issue.
Thanks

K

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Re: Service or replace

#8 Post by Brian_H » Mon Oct 21, 2019 2:33 pm

If you want to play it safe, get a multi valve with an 8mm outlet and convert it down to 6mm. Then try it and see. I've (now) got a 6mm outlet on the disco, converted back to 8mm pipe after valve issues. Not had chance to fully test to see if its adequate, but obviously 8mm pipe provides a bit of buffer there.

When you say gauge shows empty is this the one on the valve or the electronic display your referring to?

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Re: Service or replace

#9 Post by The dealers dream » Fri Oct 25, 2019 2:02 pm

Thanks again Brian.

Confused - the KME site talks about a KME Gold with 6mm pipe but looking on the sales sites, I'm only finding 8mm ones. This makes me want to swap out the current KME 'gold' for an 8mm kme 'gold'.

I don't understand why my current KME reducer has an anodised gold core but has "KME RED" stamped into it ?

So, I intend to buy;
1) 8mm multi valve (to resolve filler shutting off early and increase the hose to 8mm).
2) KME gold reducer (rather more than required?) as it will fit easily where the last one was and has been spoken well of here
3) injector valves - not sure which type to buy yet - valtec30 are a nice price.

Any recommendations for injectors to match with the NEVO controller and KME reducer?
I'd like to keep the NEVO controller but if there is a reducer/injector combination that is better than KME/Valtec then I'd be happy to swap.

Keith

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Re: Service or replace

#10 Post by Brian_H » Fri Oct 25, 2019 3:32 pm

Valtek 30 aren't particularly highly rated. The Nevo supports many injectors, it might be worth checking in the software to see what's listed to start with. Might need to update the firmware to get more support for newer injectors on your existing ecu.

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Re: Service or replace

#11 Post by Gilbertd » Fri Oct 25, 2019 9:52 pm

Valtec 34 are vastly better than the 30s and not that much more expensive.
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Re: Service or replace

#12 Post by LPGC » Sat Oct 26, 2019 9:32 pm

The filling port on a multivalve with 8mm outlet or 6mm outlet are identical... If there are filling issues changing the MV will fix it (if the issues is due to the MV) but not because of the MV outlet size, just because you are replacing the MV.

You don't need an 8mm outlet on a P38. If you only have 6mm pipe running from tank to reducer it won't make any difference anyway, the long length of pipe is more important than the tank outlet size.
A multivalve with 6mm outlet coupled with 8mm pipe from tank to reducer will outflow a multivalve with 8mm outlet coupled with 6mm pipe from tank to reducer. For many years multivalves were not even available with 8mm outlets, still we converted 400bhp cars with a 6mm outlet MV and 8mm pipe (using a step-up adaptor)... Couldn't convert a 400bhp car using an 8mm MV with 6mm pipe, probably could using a 6mm MV with 8mm pipe, definitely can using an 8mm MV with 8mm pipe. You don't need a reducer or gas solenoid with 8mm fittings on a P38, just a good idea to use 8mm pipe from tank to front solenoid.


For intents and purposes of 'supported injectors' the LPG ECU only directly sees the electrical properties of the injectors (which really just means electrical resistance), plus indirectly the LPG ECU may adjust peak time (out of peak and hold time), plus indirectly an LPG ECU may assign 'dead time' (injector lag) for selected injectors which can have an effect on calibration. Nevo (especially recent firmware) directly supports a vast range of injectors - most injector brands/types can be chosen from a list. But with Nevo these properties aren't so important anyway.. the dead time / lag can be dialled in directly, so just about any injector can be used, just choose an injector with similar electrical resistance that will need a similar initial peak current to open the injector. You can use any LPG injectors with Nevo, and set dead time / offset separately to the electrical characteristics.


Valtek type 30 aren't a great injector but they are one of a diminishing number of injectors still available with 4mm outlets. If your install has 4mm injector spuds / injector pipes and if you have a reducer that can supply gas at high enough pressure (say 1.7 bar) they can be a sensible choice as a replacement injector. V30's were probably the first really 'system generic' injector and are a lot more reliable (and a bit better in performance) than they used to be. Still not great in any respect...

V34s aren't much more expensive than V30s and perform better. But still not a great performing or very reliable injector and in my opinion far better injectors can be had for the same money.
A lot of KME systems use KME reducer (Gold / Silver), KME electronics and MJ injectors. MJ injectors well blow away V34 injectors. MJ and V34 have 6mm outlets. I like OMVL SL's for P38's due to the sideways gas outlets... and OMVL SL's will out-perform V34's in terms of performance and reliability.

KME Silver is a similar design to KME Gold, KME silver are under-rated in terms of reliability and performance, they will fit where a Gold was fitted but have only one outlet (Gold has 2 outlets) and a different angle of gas entry to Gold, same water connections though. Gold is over-rated in terms of reliability.
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