Service or replace

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The dealers dream
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Service or replace

#1 Post by The dealers dream » Mon Oct 14, 2019 7:09 pm

Hi all.
I was a regular visitor back in 2015 with a necam vaux.
Recently bought a P38 4.6 bosch.

It has a poorly lpg. I am wondering if I should replace the front end (and tank sllenoid) or rebuild the current system. Mot records and installation receipt suggest it has done 10k and is five years old.

The ecu has the word nova on it and has been smeared with sealent. The reducer has a gold coloured core and is stamped kme red.

The liquid line is only 6mm (but kme website suggests this is OK?)

The injector solenoids are unbranded and sound too noisy for 10k of use.

So experts (especially Simon and gilbert), should I rebiild this reducer and replace the injectors or (as I hope to keep the car) replace this cheap looking kit with a good brand?

What is known to work well on bosch P38?

Many thanks

K

Brian_H
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Re: Service or replace

#2 Post by Brian_H » Mon Oct 14, 2019 7:24 pm

Might help to identify the kit a bit better to give some idea of what your looking at - the forum now allows uploading of photos directly, if you can get some photos of the injectors that would give those who can help some idea of what your looking at. Its also helpful to see how its installed - on the Thor (Bosch) engines there are a few options for connection of the injectors, some of which may work, but not necessarily very well.

Could you define runs poorly - lack of acceleration? random misfires? unpredictable performance/hesitation? Any idea of fault codes being logged?

P38 wise you might want to check out https://rangerovers.pub/ as well - Many of the same folk on here and there just in case its something a bit more p38 and less LPG stuff you want to ask about.

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Re: Service or replace

#3 Post by The dealers dream » Mon Oct 14, 2019 9:25 pm

Hi brian
The injectors are just nasty generic types. The name on the ecu suggests this is a nevo kme system.
Before I spend any money or time on it, I wanted to check if this cheap kit is worth the effort.
I suspect our site installers may suggest it is better to bin it and start from scratch.

It accelerates well and works for 15 odd miles before struggling. Previous owner has replaced filters in an attempt to resolve the issue. Sealent on the ecu case is enouugh to make me want to bin it
Thanks

K

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Re: Service or replace

#4 Post by LPGC » Mon Oct 14, 2019 10:17 pm

I regard Nevo as the best all round LPG ECU ever made, never known one's case leak but sealant on it doesn't seem promising.
KME Gold reducers can give some hassles.
Unlikely I wouldn't know the brand of 'unbranded' injectors if I saw a pic.

In worst case scenario the ECU, reducer and injectors would all be broken but that's very unlikely. Even then I'd advise keeping the loom, plugging a new ECU into the loom, swap the reducer and swap the injectors. Any other scenario and you'd only be swapping some of those bits, if the loom hasn't been fitted properly you could fit it properly with no more work than fitting new.
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Re: Service or replace

#5 Post by Brian_H » Tue Oct 15, 2019 11:15 am

The KME Nevo is generally quite good - I've got 3 vehicles now all on that series of kit (2 of them 4 cylinders, the other a V8 Disco). If you suspect the ecu has been messed with, it may be worth taking it off and having a good look at it on a table to see why its been sealed back up. Don't think you can get the KME ecus separately from the loom, least not from what shopping around I've done.

I've not got a reducer of theirs so can't comment on that, but is there a reason for rebuilding it at this stage? They generally start leaking (either gas into vacuum, gas into water or gas or water to outside) and thats a reason for rebuilding them at that point.

Injectors wise, all of mine are using the OVML fast Reg ones - the ones with the blue plastic coils. Got no complaints on those. Not particually expensive, but reliable, not known them to be noisy except for if they are touching something they shouldn't be (the two rubber bungs missing might account for noise though)

Where are your injectors connected to on the manifold? If its the tubes at the top of the manifold (the bunches of bananas) then there is a possibility you have injectors and banks swapped over from where they should be, which can cause issues. Its better if you can get them onto the lower manifold if possible as this makes wiring simpler and means they are closer to the petrol injectors.

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Re: Service or replace

#6 Post by The dealers dream » Tue Oct 15, 2019 3:45 pm

Thanks guys, that's great to know. I will keep the nevo.
I will replace the injectors just because they ~sound wrong~.
I want a new ecu, keeping the old one as a spare.

The reducer has a gold colour core but is stamped with the word ~red ~ Is this a ~gold~?

kme say 6mm supply is OK, does the forum agree?

I'd like to rebuild the reducer as its 5 years old and unknown history.

Also not sure about the reducer and ecu vacuum sensor being teed. Would prefer two separate hoses at different points in the manifold.

Time to download some software and take a look.

Gut feeling for the current problem is shut off solinoids or reducer - happy to be wrong.

Thanks again, will post image of injection points.

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Re: Service or replace

#7 Post by The dealers dream » Mon Oct 21, 2019 2:16 pm

Embarrassing.....

It appears that when the guage indicates empty, that is because the tank is...... You guessed it..... Empty!

I didn't think the tank was empty because I had just topped it off and the car was cutting out rather than switching back to petrol.

A problem with the float is shutting off the 80 (100)l tank at 28 litres.

The self calibrating display feature of the nevo results in the guage scaling nicely between 0 and 100% with only a small amount of fuel.

I will buy a new multivalve before removing the old one (and will make sure it is the correct angle).

So, should I use this as an opportunity to change to 8mm pipe or is 6 really enough for the job?

I will post in problems for the cut out rather than change over issue.
Thanks

K

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Re: Service or replace

#8 Post by Brian_H » Mon Oct 21, 2019 2:33 pm

If you want to play it safe, get a multi valve with an 8mm outlet and convert it down to 6mm. Then try it and see. I've (now) got a 6mm outlet on the disco, converted back to 8mm pipe after valve issues. Not had chance to fully test to see if its adequate, but obviously 8mm pipe provides a bit of buffer there.

When you say gauge shows empty is this the one on the valve or the electronic display your referring to?

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Re: Service or replace

#9 Post by The dealers dream » Fri Oct 25, 2019 2:02 pm

Thanks again Brian.

Confused - the KME site talks about a KME Gold with 6mm pipe but looking on the sales sites, I'm only finding 8mm ones. This makes me want to swap out the current KME 'gold' for an 8mm kme 'gold'.

I don't understand why my current KME reducer has an anodised gold core but has "KME RED" stamped into it ?

So, I intend to buy;
1) 8mm multi valve (to resolve filler shutting off early and increase the hose to 8mm).
2) KME gold reducer (rather more than required?) as it will fit easily where the last one was and has been spoken well of here
3) injector valves - not sure which type to buy yet - valtec30 are a nice price.

Any recommendations for injectors to match with the NEVO controller and KME reducer?
I'd like to keep the NEVO controller but if there is a reducer/injector combination that is better than KME/Valtec then I'd be happy to swap.

Keith

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Re: Service or replace

#10 Post by Brian_H » Fri Oct 25, 2019 3:32 pm

Valtek 30 aren't particularly highly rated. The Nevo supports many injectors, it might be worth checking in the software to see what's listed to start with. Might need to update the firmware to get more support for newer injectors on your existing ecu.

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Re: Service or replace

#11 Post by Gilbertd » Fri Oct 25, 2019 9:52 pm

Valtec 34 are vastly better than the 30s and not that much more expensive.
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Re: Service or replace

#12 Post by LPGC » Sat Oct 26, 2019 9:32 pm

The filling port on a multivalve with 8mm outlet or 6mm outlet are identical... If there are filling issues changing the MV will fix it (if the issues is due to the MV) but not because of the MV outlet size, just because you are replacing the MV.

You don't need an 8mm outlet on a P38. If you only have 6mm pipe running from tank to reducer it won't make any difference anyway, the long length of pipe is more important than the tank outlet size.
A multivalve with 6mm outlet coupled with 8mm pipe from tank to reducer will outflow a multivalve with 8mm outlet coupled with 6mm pipe from tank to reducer. For many years multivalves were not even available with 8mm outlets, still we converted 400bhp cars with a 6mm outlet MV and 8mm pipe (using a step-up adaptor)... Couldn't convert a 400bhp car using an 8mm MV with 6mm pipe, probably could using a 6mm MV with 8mm pipe, definitely can using an 8mm MV with 8mm pipe. You don't need a reducer or gas solenoid with 8mm fittings on a P38, just a good idea to use 8mm pipe from tank to front solenoid.


For intents and purposes of 'supported injectors' the LPG ECU only directly sees the electrical properties of the injectors (which really just means electrical resistance), plus indirectly the LPG ECU may adjust peak time (out of peak and hold time), plus indirectly an LPG ECU may assign 'dead time' (injector lag) for selected injectors which can have an effect on calibration. Nevo (especially recent firmware) directly supports a vast range of injectors - most injector brands/types can be chosen from a list. But with Nevo these properties aren't so important anyway.. the dead time / lag can be dialled in directly, so just about any injector can be used, just choose an injector with similar electrical resistance that will need a similar initial peak current to open the injector. You can use any LPG injectors with Nevo, and set dead time / offset separately to the electrical characteristics.


Valtek type 30 aren't a great injector but they are one of a diminishing number of injectors still available with 4mm outlets. If your install has 4mm injector spuds / injector pipes and if you have a reducer that can supply gas at high enough pressure (say 1.7 bar) they can be a sensible choice as a replacement injector. V30's were probably the first really 'system generic' injector and are a lot more reliable (and a bit better in performance) than they used to be. Still not great in any respect...

V34s aren't much more expensive than V30s and perform better. But still not a great performing or very reliable injector and in my opinion far better injectors can be had for the same money.
A lot of KME systems use KME reducer (Gold / Silver), KME electronics and MJ injectors. MJ injectors well blow away V34 injectors. MJ and V34 have 6mm outlets. I like OMVL SL's for P38's due to the sideways gas outlets... and OMVL SL's will out-perform V34's in terms of performance and reliability.

KME Silver is a similar design to KME Gold, KME silver are under-rated in terms of reliability and performance, they will fit where a Gold was fitted but have only one outlet (Gold has 2 outlets) and a different angle of gas entry to Gold, same water connections though. Gold is over-rated in terms of reliability.
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kbs
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Re: Service or replace

#13 Post by kbs » Sun Feb 02, 2020 10:01 pm

Sorry I've not thanked everyone for their great advice sooner - 'other duties' have kept me away from the car for some time.
Also lost password to site and had problems resetting.... but I found my old account so name changed on post.

Brian - good idea, will update to latest firmware and get a list of what is available.
Gilb - good to know valtek 34 will work well with this setup.
Simon - sounds right, a system with 1' of 6mm pipe in 15' of an 8mm run will not perform much differently to a installation all in 8mm. A vessel wont empty much faster through 1' of 8mm than it will through 1' of 6mm. The same is not true when the pipe is 100' long. I am keen to get an 8mm run for the full length when I have to change it but may test with the existing 6mm first.

I've been looking at faro pipe and may want to do some of the run in this. The ~8mm faro has an internal ~6mm. My 8mm copper has an internal of ~4mm. I appreciate solid pipe is sized by its OD but even so, it seems '8mm' faro has a significantly larger ID than the 8mm copper?

Good to see another vote for the V34. I will measure the outlet size.

Dear all - how daft have I been? I've spoken to a foreign supplier and asked for a reducer that suits the temperature sender in my current KME gold. He told me that the KME gold is no longer available and the only KME that will accept my temperature sender is the GT model (capable of nearly twice the HP I need). This has an 8mm inlet, is not going to fit under the bonnet without moving the solenoid from on top of it and has gas outlets in a different place. I've ordered it together with a 6mm MV, some adapters, elbows and 1m of faro and some 12mm lpg pipe. May live to regret this......should just have rebuilt the old reducer, but the nice man at the LPG dealers told me I should buy a new one from him.

Thanks again for all your great help and I wont leave the thread dead for so long next time.

K

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Re: Service or replace

#14 Post by LPGC » Mon Feb 03, 2020 12:48 pm

Welcome back KBS

In my experience the most reliable KME brand reducer is the Silver (which has a 6mm inlet). I also think the manufacturer under-rates the Silver's flow ability.. maybe to highlight the difference between the Silver and Gold models.

Most KME reducers are unusual in that they don't have an obvious location to attach a temperature sensor, instead you unscrew the screw that holds the plate that clamps the water connections in position and screw the temp sensor in it's place, so the temp sensor holds the plate in position.
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Re: Service or replace

#15 Post by kbs » Tue Feb 04, 2020 2:07 pm

Hi Simon.
A silver is available, I could have used that. It still had the solinoid on the top so would need to move that to get it under the bonnet. I'd need a y piece for the outlet. It's listed as slightly lower hp but bound to me more than I need.

A gold gt has just arrived. I have faro and adapters to try with the old copper pipe. I ordered a 6mm mv but have been sent an 8. Angle and size is correct. Should have bought in UK. Will look at possibility of using 8mm mv tonight.

Thanks for mentioning the temp sender, I was wondering where that was going to screw in!
Keith

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Re: Service or replace

#16 Post by kbs » Wed Feb 05, 2020 11:34 am

New reducer fitted.
8mm from reducer to filter/solenoid
8mm from filter/solenoid, faro 8mm to copper 6mm adapter to original 6mm copper
New MV fitted, tank fills properly. 8mm mv via 90 degree Faro then straight 8mm faro to 6mm copper.
No leaks.
Had to try briefly running it without any set up (impatient boy wants it NOW) it pulls wonderfully but idle is all wrong.
Just need to ID injectors as no confidence that right type are set in software. Will measure R and make sure that matches config.
Time for the satanic - set it up for me - wizard! If my gas pressure is close enough.... I have some new injectors coming (the old ones clack like castanets).
Old injectors could be tomesetti? According to paper work, they hardly have any miles on them but the sound they make says otherwise. An unknown that was there when I bought the car so no point guessing.

I've taken the guru advice for the v34 valtec but UK prices seemed really high? Got a mate DHLing some, should be here next week.

Once new injectors are on, I'll want to configure it all properly.

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Re: Service or replace

#17 Post by LPGC » Wed Feb 05, 2020 1:18 pm

The autocal / setup wizard in Nevo is like most other autocal / setup wizards... not very good! Will probably get you running OK on a P38 but you'll at least need to check high load open loop fuelling as no self tuning system can set this area of the map correctly.

I never use wizards / autocal on any system, have tried them on all systems (including Nevo's a few years ago). There used to be a bug in Nevo soft/firmware that caused components of autocal functionality to run whether you opted to use the wizard/autocal or not, the bug caused autocal to mess up any manual adjustments you made during the period autocal was active but autocal only remained active for maybe half an hour of driving (from fitting a new ECU). The way around the bug messing things up was to upload a previously saved config in which flags for the half hour being up would already be set, so I always start calibration of a new Nevo ECU by first uploading an old config file. If I didn't upload an old config first I'd have to drive around for maybe half an hour until autocal stopped messing things up (and if you set more than the standard 7 or so number of map points autocal would really mess things up - another bug). Since then there have been many soft/firmware updates so these bugs may have been fixed but I wouldn't know because I still upload an old config and do a full manual calibration, but I have a few template calibration files in which I've already set adjustments for rpm to suit the average vehicle and some fail-safes such as switching back to petrol for high loads with a reducer or gas vapour that's too cold to handle high loads... these settings effectively allow switching to gas at a lower temperature than would be the norm for systems that don't feature such settings.

Even if you use the wizard or autocal, still best not to enable any of the self tuning functions such as Mosa adaption.
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Re: Service or replace

#18 Post by kbs » Wed Feb 05, 2020 7:12 pm

Hi Simon,

Thanks - although I don't know what mosa is in this context? We used to call electric crowbar devices mosa (goes short when over voltage - except they had a habit of melting if your voltage stayed close the magic value for a long time).

I did a firmware update so saved a config and reloaded after the update. I will make sure I always do that before trying an auto cal.

Now for the embarrassing bit.... remember I said it pulled well but the idle was not well?

Take a look at the screen shot
Untitled2.png
Untitled2.png (160.69 KiB) Viewed 642 times
It seems the petrol injector for #7 is not actually attached to the Nevo at all!
Was it running on 7 or 7 gas + 1 petrol?
I hoped to have heard that one of the eight injectors was not clacking, 7 out of 8 should have been fairly obvious.
Live and learn and remember to laugh I suppose.

So this is a Nevo Pro so can be connected directly to the OBD. This one isn't. Should I do it?
Not sure about the lamba connections, they are not showing in the live software screens. There are options to set inputs to accept different lamba probes but none of the inputs are enabled. I will RTFM to see about this, I'd like to think lambda should be provided by ODB - any advantage to wiring directly to the lamda?

Thanks

Keith

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Re: Service or replace

#19 Post by Brian_H » Wed Feb 05, 2020 8:10 pm

Most likely you have the injector cut for number 7 back to front - its easily done (I've managed it and not fixed it properly yet, but will do soon as the manifold needs to come off to replace the leaking valley gasket on mine)

Don't bother with the lambda direct wiring, you don't need it and it can cause problems if your unlucky (corroded connections, voltage going to the sensor and killing it are 2 possibilities). Same applies to the obd connection, it isn't needed/

It also looks to me like maybe you need to tell it which bank is which, it looks like you have 1 bank on the odd numbers, the other on even numbers (going by the timings in your screenshot), I'm fairly sure the wiring loom doesn't come like that, so it may have been messed around with somewhat to make that work.

Where have the spuds/nozzles been connected to the manifold? If its in the upper part that can be a problem, as they cross over banks at that point, so its easy to get them mixed up and end up fueling one bank from the opposite set of injectors to what your expecting to. Better results come from getting them into the bottom section (drill out some of the flat bits between the bananas to make your path to the lower bit)

Mosa - Our own solutions of adaptation of the gas controller OSA and MOSA ensure comfortable conditions for driving the car with the gas system as well as automatic adjustment of the gas dose to changeable work conditions. MOSA (Map-on Board System Adaptation) is available in all control units in NEVO family (NEVO/NEVO PLUS/NEVO PRO). It makes possible to adjust gas dose on the base of engine readings while on gasoline and to monitor readings while on gas

Copied directly from their own webpage https://nevo.kme.eu/en/

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Re: Service or replace

#20 Post by kbs » Wed Feb 05, 2020 11:13 pm

Hi brian
Thanks for the mosa stuff.
This is not my install, I must check wiring, hope it's just a broken lead for p7. I should unplug it and check p7 actually works (given my hearing can no longer hear a missing cylinder).

I thought p7 must have been working at some point but am surprised nevo did not flash error for no p7 signal.

Can you expand on the bank stuff? The loom looks fairly intact so the banks of lpg inj have their original groupings.

The hoses dissappear under the manifolds but I can't see where they finish. I will take a look when the p34s arrive.

Happy to take advice and leave obd plus lamda not connected.

Thanks

Keith

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