I want a car!

[LPGC]

I've just got back from driving mine to Latvia and back and the previous week it towed a 3 tonne trailer to the south of France and back. 5,802 miles in three weeks and now showing 321,434.......

Sounds like a nice journey..

I'd love an excuse for a trip like that!
I've still got the ML320 7 seater, not done much with it, pretty much just been parked up since holiday but I've put a new fan belt tensioner and belt on it, bit of a whiney pas pump to change and slight rear brake line leak to sort.

Just repaired the LPG system (fitted elsewhere) on an ML370, previous installer he went to for servicing (who also didn't originally fit the system) reckoned his rear brake line leak was due to the LPG pipe between tank and engine rubbing against the brake pipe - I doubt it, can't see how it could have rubbed against the metal pipe even if LPG line wasn't secured properly, his leak was in the same place as mine and is a common spot for leaks on ML's due to corrosion where it is most exposed.

Simon

[Gilbertd]

I've just got back from driving mine to Latvia and back and the previous week it towed a 3 tonne trailer to the south of France and back. 5,802 miles in three weeks and now showing 321,434.......

Sounds like a nice journey..

I'd love an excuse for a trip like that!

You've got one, you're an LPG installer and you need to pick up a few bits and pieces in Poland while at the same time carrying out your own research into where is the cheapest place to buy gas (31.9 Euro cents in Belgium, and 1.98 Zloty in Poland). What more excuse do you need?

This time we came back the same way as we went out (France, Belgium, Holland, Germany, Poland, Lithuania, Latvia) but next time we'll go out that way but when setting off to head back we'll head north into Estonia, ferry to Finland, Sweden and then back into Germany. The return route is slightly less distance but more expensive with teh difference in fuel price. To give you a clue, I set off with 600 Euros in my wallet and got back with 60 left. That included the odd meal out too.

[kbs]

Still tail chasing.

Couple of wasted journeys to view (real BIG problems with these two P38s - your white stick would need red bands before you could buy one) followed by some seriously dishonest behaviour. So am now getting reluctant to waste weekends travelling.

Other projects coming up so its time to slow down on the car hunting.
Hoping more options (nearer to home?) appear as the dreaded time of year approaches.

If no viable £3k bosch P38 this year then its back to sub £1000 disposible euro junk in 2017.

[LPGC]

Years ago my mate used to be into XR3i's and the like, there were plenty of those that had been crashed or were in dodgy condition so he used to say to the seller... 'So you're saying the condition of the XYZ on the car are as you described, so do you agree that If I come to see the car and the condition of XYZ aren't like you described you'll pay my fuel costs and a bit on top for wasting my time coming to view it?'.. Stopped wasted journeys to maybe 30% of the bs'ers back in the day... but these days could ask the seller to email pics?

Simon

[kbs]

Sounds like a good idea, chatting through standard problems and mentioning my costs could help if the seller has an honest bone or two in their body.

I was silly to think I had a reasonable chance of finding a dealer with even one of those bones.
Perhaps I can make myself sound like a thug on the phone? Shout at my imaginary dog 'Tyson' or pretend to be driving and scream death threats at cyclists? Use racist and offensive language?

Having discussed aspects such as 'loud blowing noises from heads' and cracked air springs - I travelled 2 hours to a dealers to find;
Heavily chuffing right head, clear water for coolant and 2 cracked/leaking air springs.

Dealers responses;
Air spings "The guy who sold it to me said it had four new air springs - I can only go by what I am told" (I didn't point out that if sight wasn't upto it, he shouldn't be driving).00
Chuffing head gasket "My mechanic tells me its coming from the manifold to cat joint" (wonder which part he thought was the cat - perhaps he thought it could 'throw its voice')
Expansion tank brimmed with clear coolant with only the slightest hint of AF "Some people fill them with plain water" (indignant tone, inference being there is nothing wrong with plain water).

Would have liked to recover something from this one but looking back, I'm glad to have just got away without further complications.

When they set out to F you over - it doesn't seem to matter what you say.

I need to either get better at spotting b.s.ers (ignore the adverts that say 'trade' perhaps?).

Mostly - I seem to be able to filter the private messers and their tall stories but I'm just not good enough to ID the real pros.

One thing that does seem to work for me is email. When they answer 'candidly' on the phone - or you need to clarify - an email can help.
Dishonest dealers of course wont reply to an email - they want it verbally so it can be denied later. Privates who happily BS on the phone - have suddenly told the truth by email saving me a journey. One of these when asked if the full V5 in his name/address and in his possesion replied "no problem" and "thats fine" on the phone. When asked by email, he only had the new keerpers section (bit had owned it for 15 months and there wasn't a problem).

Looking locally now - no harm if its a short journey.

[Gilbertd]

Chuffing from the head might be head to manifold leak but if it is a little rough at idle, it can just as easily be a head gasket blowing straight out the side. I say a little rough because 7/8 is still reasonably smooth (one of mine was blowing into the Vee when I first got it but I've seen another that still had enough compression to fire when you got the revs up over 1,000 rpm but the flames out the side of the block from a blown head gasket did give a clue as to why it was dropping to 7 at idle....). Iffy air springs are a bargaining tool. Rears usually go first as they get more rubbish thrown up from the road onto them but at £50 a corner from Island 4x4 for genuine Dunlops, so if you can use that to get the price dropped then you can be onto a winner. Pretty easy to replace too. Clean plain water for coolant would definitely ring alarm bells though, that means that a) it hasn't been looked after properly and b) it's only recently been changed so chances are it's losing coolant which could point to much bigger problems.

Personally I won't touch dealers as they have probably just taken the car in part ex so know nothing about it and will tell the buyer what he wants to hear. Far better to buy privately from someone who has owned the car for some time. There's usually about 20-30 already converted to LPG on eBay at any time and if you are careful and ask the right questions, you should be able to find a decent one.

[LPGC]

You might help with this one Gilbert - Are HG type symptoms on Rover V8's usually due to just head gaskets or worse? Happened a couple of times where a P38 comes in running poorly, especially on LPG but also on petrol, loosing water and over-pressurising, after ruling out the reducer and water pump etc we're left with the partial diagnosis - HG type symptoms which could just be HG(s), which would only cost X amount to sort out, but could potentially be liners, porous, etc, which would cost a lot more to sort out. Customer then says 'Hmm, well if it would only cost X to fix and that will definitely fix it then I'd pay that much, but no more', and asks if I'll fix it for X... I turn the work down due to not being totally sure the problem will just be HG(s), customer then goes elsewhere who again diagnose HG's and say they'll fix it for Y but don't explain the problem could be worse than just HG's, in some cases they've then gone on to diagnose something more ominous than Hg's and owner ends up with a bill several times Y when they'd probably rather have scrapped the car.

Simon

[Gilbertd]

Most common cause of over pressurising is air locks, they can be a real bitch to get all the air out. If there has been a coolant leak and it has been allowed to get too low, then it will need bleeding properly. Common causes of leaks are from the heater core O rings where coolant drips down the centre console next to the drivers left foot or from the throttle body heater. Difficulty bleeding is very regularly down to the bleed nipple on the top of the radiator, the pipe attached to it and the hole in the header tank being blocked so any air trapped in the top of the radiator can't get out. They do go through head gaskets, especially if they have been overheated. It's the standard neglect makes the problem worse. A coolant leak gets ignored so the level drops, the lack of coolant causes an overheat which distorts the heads and causes the gasket to blow. Slipped liners are much rarer than some people make out and the porous block story is, in 99.99% of cases just that, a story but a serious overheat can cause all sorts of damage which may not be immediately apparent. If head gasket symptoms are noticed, check compressions and plugs for any signs of coolant. If you've got one of those little cameras you can stick down a spark plug hole, use that to look for a steam cleaned piston. The coolant passages run at each end of the heads so if coolant is getting into the front or rear cylinders on a bank, it is most likely from the head gasket, if it's either of the middle ones, it points to a weeping liner. Liner problems don't just happen though, they are caused and the cause is almost always that the engine has been seriously overheated. An overheat will always be caused by one of two things, a lack of coolant or a lack of flow. Again we come down to neglect or penny pinching. Using plain water as coolant clogs the coolant system with rusty stuff, that clogs the radiator resulting in poor flow. Water pumps do wear out, fitting a Britpart (although the Br is often substituted with Sh) at under £20 is wasting money. If you are lucky they will start to leak after about 2,000 miles, if you are unlucky they don't leak but the impeller falls off the shaft so everything looks perfect but it's doing nothing. Anything like this will increase the possibility of an overheat which can lead to further problems sometime later.

100% cure is to fit top hat liners (£950 from V8 Developments that did mine) as this puts the fire ring onto the top of the liner rather than on the block with the join between block and liner within the combustion chamber. Not cheap but you end up with an engine that will be good for another 250,000 miles. The problem is that these cars were very expensive when new and while they were owned by the first or second owner, they were properly serviced. Now they can be picked up for under a grand but will almost certainly have been neglected in the meantime.

[LPGC]

Thanks Gilbert.

Next time I get a P38 here with HG type problems - and owner asks me to fix it - I'll do as you suggest and get my little camera down into the bores. May take it on if some front rather than rear pistons are steam cleaned. I knew about the heater issues etc, didn't know Britpart might be spelled otherwise - there's a RR specialist firm near here who I think rate their bits, or maybe there's another sound-alike?

I doubt firms who went on to repair some of those with suspected HG problems I've seen will have fitted top hat liners, even though they charged thousands for the repair!

Simon

[Brian_H]

Thanks Gilbert.

Next time I get a P38 here with HG type problems - and owner asks me to fix it - I'll do as you suggest and get my little camera down into the bores. May take it on if some front rather than rear pistons are steam cleaned. I knew about the heater issues etc, didn't know Britpart might be spelled otherwise - there's a RR specialist firm near here who I think rate their bits, or maybe there's another sound-alike?

I doubt firms who went on to repair some of those with suspected HG problems I've seen will have fitted top hat liners, even though they charged thousands for the repair!

Simon

The local Land Rover specialist doesn't rate Britpart bits either - I've seen a few parts that my mate with his Series III from them which have failed far quicker than you'd expect (clutch slave cylinder with only a few months use being the most recent). If your not getting Richard's meaning write down the alternate spelling for yourself, and you will understand......

[Gilbertd]

May take it on if some front rather than rear pistons are steam cleaned.

Front and rear (cylinders 1,2,7 and 8) is likely to be HG between the waterways and combustion chamber, it's when you find one of the middle cylinders (3,4,5 and 6) that it will be a liner. The waterways between block and head run at either end of the heads but there's no coolant passage through the HG anywhere near the middle cylinders.

didn't know Britpart might be spelled otherwise - there's a RR specialist firm near here who I think rate their bits, or maybe there's another sound-alike?

Parts suppliers like them because there is a big markup on cheaply made, Chinese rip off components. If you are selling a car and aren't worried about longevity, just getting it to work/through an MoT then fine, if you expect to be able to drive it then steer well clear. The exhaust on my car is original except for the centre box which was replaced 2 years ago with a Britpart. The centre box always goes first from water settling in the bottom and rotting it through from the inside. The original 18 year old parts are still fine, the Britpart centre box lasted 2 years before the outlet pipe rotted away and fell off. They can't even get something as simple as a washer nozzle right. I fitted one because it was cheap and how could something that simple not work? The original one on one side sprays two fine jets of water at the windscreen, the Britpart one looks like a couple of shower heads have been fitted instead by the way it sprays water anywhere.

I doubt firms who went on to repair some of those with suspected HG problems I've seen will have fitted top hat liners, even though they charged thousands for the repair!

So do I. V8 Developments will do a complete exchange engine for less than the prices I've heard some people have been charged for a HG job. The cost is in the labour and it takes a lot less time to pull an engine out and drop a replacement in than it does to strip one down in place.

[LPGC]

If your not getting Richard's meaning write down the alternate spelling for yourself, and you will understand......

Yeh I picked up on that Bri! I could be wrong about this local firm liking **itparts but when I visit (I do diagnostics for them even on petrol systems) I often hear brand names mentioned and thought they considered **itparts were OK - but I could be mistaken, probably so if there's a soundalike to **itparts. Off subject but was recently asked to visit to look at a P38 with Prins conversion, would run OK on LPG but wouldn't run on petrol (I don't know how they'd got it running long enough to switch to LPG because when I visited it wouldn't even start let alone run on petrol long enough to switch to LPG). No petrol pressure, fuel pump relay wasn't turning on, replacing the relay still didn't see it turn on. Fuse/relay box provides constant 12v to relay coils with ECU providing relay coil earth, ECU wasn't providing adequate earth to the relay coil, fault wasn't corroded fuse box etc it was the petrol ECU (strangely seemed to provide a PWM signal without enough DC). I got it started and running by just jumping the relay switch sockets in fuse box, proving the main functionality of petrol ECU / LPG system etc. Effected a fix by simply using a different relay energised from injector+ to switch power to the fuel pump, the real fix would have been another petrol ECU (ouch)!

Front and rear (cylinders 1,2,7 and is likely to be HG between the waterways and combustion chamber, it's when you find one of the middle cylinders (3,4,5 and 6) that it will be a liner. The waterways between block and head run at either end of the heads but there's no coolant passage through the HG anywhere near the middle cylinders.

Thanks

V8 Developments will do a complete exchange engine for less than the prices I've heard some people have been charged for a HG job. The cost is in the labour and it takes a lot less time to pull an engine out and drop a replacement in than it does to strip one down in place.

Agreed but the replacement engine has got to be a good one, next question where does the good replacement engine come from and how much did it cost. If possible to confirm the current engine's only issue is an HG then how viable is replacing HGs without removing the engine? If the replacement were a rebuilt unit labour costs of the rebuild would have to be included, hence my question on probability of just HG problem versus more involved problem. Agreed even just HG work is easier with the engine out of the car and an engine swap would probably be easier, but with a confident HG diagnosis I probably wouldn't take the engine out... Easier steps taking the engine out to do HG's, but more steps...

Thanks,

Simon

[Gilbertd]

Changing head gaskets with the engine in the car is dead easy, absolutely no need to take it out at all. Once the inlet manifold is off it's only a pair of pushrod 4 cylinder engines sitting side by side after all. The only tricky bit is getting to the rearmost exhaust manifold bolt on the RH head as the steering column is in the way and the tiny bolts that hold the heatshields on the manifolds aren't much fun either. I could probably have a head off in a couple of hours. If replacing an engine there's no point in just bunging in a secondhand one of unknown history, if you are going to do the job, you may as well do it properly. An engine swap can be done in well under a day so swapping for a long block keeps the labour cost down and can be had for £2.5k (see http://www.v8developments.co.uk/product ... ndex.shtml) and that's for what is effectively a brand new engine but with top hat liners. A short engine is cheaper (see http://www.v8developments.co.uk/product ... ndex.shtml) but obviously there's extra labour in putting the heads back.

I went for the more labour intensive route on mine. I removed the heads with the engine in the car and then pulled the lump out. That went to V8 Developments and came back a couple of weeks later with top hat liners, pistons, rings, big ends, mains, camshaft, followers, cam chain, oil pump, core plugs and anything else they didn't like the look of. I did the heads myself while the block was being done and they got new guides, valves, seats, stem seals and springs as well as a quick skim. In all honesty, by the time I'd paid to get the new valve guides fitted and the seats cut, it wouldn't have worked out any cheaper if I'd just gone for the long engine. I picked the engine up on the Friday evening, had it in place Saturday morning and by evening it back in one piece. I think all I had left to do on the Sunday was connect up the exhausts, fill with coolant and fire it up. I fired it up for the first time around lunchtime and that evening I drove it 100 miles or so to Leeds.....

[LPGC]

Nice one! And thanks again.

No wish to detract from what you've said or done with yours and at £2500 for a better than new engine from V8D you ensured you weren't rpiped off But some people wouldn't consider £2500 for the new engine, much preferring the most economical fix for their current P38 (repair the HG's if that will cure their immediate problem without leaving too many question marks over reliability for the future) or might just buy another P38. What do you reckon would be a fair quote for doing the HGs? If HG's go what are the chances of deck damage that might mean the engine would have to come out anyway?

Mentioned Trigger's brush on forum before, the one that lasted his whole sweeping career and in that time only needed several new brush heads and several new handles, reckon that brush could sweep all across Europe without wearing out. You know where this is going mate

Not many would drive high mileage P38 across Europe

Maybe, if I was confident about certain powertrain bits

Simon

[Gilbertd]

much preferring the most economical fix for their current P38 (repair the HG's if that will cure their immediate problem without leaving too many question marks over reliability for the future)

Problem is that if the symptoms were caused by weeping liners you'll replace the HGs and it will make no difference whatsoever as there was probably nothing wrong with them in the first place. There's a guy on one of the Range Rover forums that was suffering with pressurisation and head gasket problem was diagnosed. He's spent a fortune on tools to do the job (as he didn't have a particularly good set so decided to treat himself), the gasket set, a stud conversion kit for the heads (to replace the poxy stretch bolts they originally used) and got stuck in. After doing it, it was still pressurising so the heads came off again and one of the pistons is spotless while the others have a thin layer of carbon on them (from running it while trying to bleed what he thought was airlocks out). A very careful examination showed the liner on that cylinder to be sitting about 0.2mm lower than the others so fitting top hats is what he should have done. He'd still have had to buy the bits but now he's spent money, an awful lot of time and ended up in exactly the same position as he was before he started. A good look at the piston crowns and a compression test before doing anything is paramount.

[LPGC]

Yeh, points like weeping liners etc were the reason for my questions.. So summing up - If only end pistons are steam cleaned the problem is likely to be HG but could be liners, if middle cylinders are steam cleaned more likely to be liners? Easy enough to decapitate the engine in car? If end cylinders, do you reckon it'd be worth decapitating with engine in the car (on the basis likely just HG problem) and checking liner height before fitting new HGs?

I know of a few firms that charge well over £1k just to do the HG's on P38s, some charge £2.5k just to switch to another second hand engine... But the worst case I know of was a bloke who took his P38 to a Doncaster garage who charged over £2k to repair coolant system pressurising problems and after they'd 'fixed' it was exactly the same. Bloke then came to me and I found the LPG reducer was pressurising the cooling system.. and the garage is supposedly an LPG specialist, H&B automotive not the Central place as per most bad reports, but I hear a lot of bad reports about H&B too. Names have been changed, slightly, to prevent bull**it repercussions. H&B have changed their name now anyway, not too surprising as they didn't have a great reputation.

Cheers,

Simon

[Gilbertd]

You've got it, steam cleaned middle cylinders will almost certainly be liners (as a result of previous catastrophic overheat, not a design or manufacturing fault as some would have you believe), whereas end cylinders could well be HG. As said, taking the heads off with the engine in is no problem at all, I could probably do it in a couple of hours. Things like alternator, PAS pump, AC compressor are attached to big alloy blocks that simply bolt to the fronts of the heads so with them undone you can just move stuff to one side. Later Thor (the one with the bunch of bananas inlet manifold) engines take a bit longer to get the intake off, but none of it is complicated. What makes things even easier is that you can download the full factory workshop manual which includes a step by step engine reconditioning chapter.

[LPGC]

Very good.. I'm familiar with the layout and attachment of the more external bits (like manifolds and ancillaries) having converted so many, can whip the banana type manifolds off in literally just a few minutes but no need to dig into the engine much further than that for LPG installs... I've never had to remove the ancillaries, looks simple like you've said though. Might enjoy (well, partly ) working on another pushrod engine after doing the valves in the H6 with it's complicated valvetrain, the last pushrod engine I had heads off was the Chrysler V6, piece of cake compared to the Subaru and again no need to remove the engine.

When I was about 19 I bought a couple of modded Rover V8s from a bloke who'd had them in grass cars, one supposedly modded for twin turbos with low compression etc, the other supposedly modded with a lairy cam and big valves, one engine in bits the other in one piece. Intention was to see if I could make a cylinder de-activation system for one of them and fit the other in a Sierra... both un-started projects and I eventually sold them both on Probably the first time I'd had a good look at RoverV8 heads and as memory serves they don't contain much of the combustion chamber, so removing metal wouldn't effect compression much? Did you consider increasing compression for LPG use? Wonder if removing enough metal would weaken the heads or create much problem for matching the lower intake manifold bolt pattern / head ports...

Simon

[kbs]

Been away for a couple of weeks but searching again now.
There was one I made an offer on locally (subject to test drive) and was turned down. It went to auction on ebay whilst I was away and sold for the price I offered.

.....There's usually about 20-30 already converted to LPG on eBay at any time and if you are careful and ask the right questions, you should be able to find a decent one.

I've been trying to limit my choices to Bosch types and not seen too many 'going concerns' under 3k. I may need to consider Lucas types or up my budget. Perhaps I've left it a few years too late to buy the type I want for the price I had in mind.

Hope to find something soon else its an old Merc/BMW/Volvo type of thing.

[LPGC]

I still have the ML

Since we're back on this thread, Gilbert I may have a P38 coming in with suspected HG problems and it may have been at the back of my mind when I brought up P38 HG repairs above - I recently replaced a half fitted Prins system on an X5 (and made it safe since tank etc was half fitted too), the owner had mentioned he'd got a P38 that wouldn't drive more than a mile or so without overheating, I'd forgotten about that when I mentioned HGs above (:roll: too much to remember probably!), he contacted me about it again since and may be bringing it in. It will have been severely over-heated... at least one time he drove it as far as he could before it wouldn't go any further, it never seized, but...

Simon