Astra 2002 Koltec GSI not switching to LPG

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gerrywoods
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Astra 2002 Koltec GSI not switching to LPG

#1 Post by gerrywoods » Sun Mar 20, 2016 11:25 pm

First off people, many thanks for the info already given. I am new to LPG and have found a world of info here.
Astra 2002 1.6 Dualfuel (8 Valve), Koltec GSI.
Car was not used for 2 years But is in very good condition.
I got it fired up on LPG & running perfect but was not used again for 6 weeks.
Now it only runs on petrol, there are no petrol fault codes
Temperatures etc are perfect & the Vapouriser gets hot.
When switched to LPG, nothing happens & the LED remains constant.
I have tested the Vapouriser Temp Sensor and all 3 Solenoid's and all the associated wiring - all seem OK.
I have tried grounding the Grey Wire to read the LPG fault codes, but nothing happens (constant LED).
I have also continuity tested all the remaining wiring etc - all seem OK.
I can switch the 3 Solenoid's manually by energising one of the relays in the fuse box (LPG fuel gauge then works Ok)
On the ECU mounting Bracket is the (ECU) (58x) (and another box).
Removing the cover from this other box shows a small relay some resistors & diodes, all tested OK.
If i have not missed something i am left with the ECU & 58x, which of course i cannot test.
Any suggestions or advise would be greatly appreciated.

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Re: Astra 2002 Koltec GSI not switching to LPG

#2 Post by LPGC » Mon Mar 21, 2016 11:16 am

First try disconnecting the battery for an hour..

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Re: Astra 2002 Koltec GSI not switching to LPG

#3 Post by gerrywoods » Mon Mar 21, 2016 12:05 pm

Sorry, forgot to mention, I have done all that stuff including driving on petrol for an hour.

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Re: Astra 2002 Koltec GSI not switching to LPG

#4 Post by LPGC » Mon Mar 21, 2016 6:04 pm

You didn't accidentally put reverse polarity to the solenoid wiring when testing the solenoids did you?

Few things this could be including X module / ECU.

Have a look behind your switch, there may be a diode there for you to test too.

No OBD codes for cam sensor running on petrol?

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Re: Astra 2002 Koltec GSI not switching to LPG

#5 Post by gerrywoods » Mon Mar 21, 2016 8:24 pm

No didn't put reverse polarity on the solenoid's.
Have already traced the LPG switch wires (no diode).
No OBD codes on petrol.
I am on the lookout on ebay & have sent requests to several Breakers - no joy as yet & i have sent an email to Autogas but no reply, i also have a wanted add on this forum.

PS: Just wondering if anybody would have a faulty 58x or a schematic diagram.
If & when I do get it sorted, i will post the fix here.

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Re: Astra 2002 Koltec GSI not switching to LPG

#6 Post by LPGC » Mon Mar 21, 2016 9:15 pm

You might struggle to get even a petrol ECU for a Vauxhall from a breakers - they usually have deals with ECU specialists to sell them all the Vaux ECU's they get.

58X module will have a programmed chip, would be difficult to make a 58X but new replacements are available (not 58X but direct compatible later version). Brian may have linked to PJPJ's overall system schematic on your other thread.

Fixed a great many Vaux and other factory fitted systems.

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Re: Astra 2002 Koltec GSI not switching to LPG

#7 Post by Brian_H » Mon Mar 21, 2016 10:09 pm

trouble is with the modules is they are potted - I'd suspect if you can successfully remove that that fixing the fault with them probably isn't too hard. I suspect I've got the same issue so am currently waiting some deliveries to see if i can successfully remove the potting from the completely dead module that was helpfully left installed in my car behind the replacement one that was fitted - worst case it ends up completely destroyed, but since it doesn't work at all that isn't a great loss.

I can't find a replacement for mine anywhere - 238002-024 4 pin type used on some of the ford conversions.

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Re: Astra 2002 Koltec GSI not switching to LPG

#8 Post by gerrywoods » Mon Mar 21, 2016 11:06 pm

Hi Brian H.
PM Sent.

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Re: Astra 2002 Koltec GSI not switching to LPG

#9 Post by LPGC » Tue Mar 29, 2016 1:27 pm

Brian_H wrote:I can't find a replacement for mine anywhere - 238002-024 4 pin type used on some of the ford conversions.
Fords tend to have a different way of preventing petrol fuel trim drift while running on LPG compared to Vauxhalls.. On Vauxhalls the X unit provides the petrol ECU with emulated lambda to steer fuel trims to zero (much like an AEB Ufix unit) while on most Fords the petrol ECU goes into open loop mode while running on LPG.

With both Vauxhall and Ford the petrol ECU controls the sparks while engine load dictates ignition timing, so the petrol ECU must continue to see engine load. If it wasn't for the petrol ECU needing to see engine load the petrol ECU could maybe be kidded into going open loop mode if sent a low load signal such as low TPS, low MAP, low MAF. This would still leave any other functionality of the module to be addressed (maybe rpm signal etc). I wonder how difficult it would be to make some electronics to perform that other functionality and if any 'low' signal out of those above would see the petrol ECU still provide correct ignition timing but run open loop. With only 4 pins I wouldn't have thought the unit too involved.. See where those pins run to?

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Re: Astra 2002 Koltec GSI not switching to LPG

#10 Post by Brian_H » Fri Apr 01, 2016 11:13 pm

Have spent most of the last week stripping off the potting from the totally shot unit i've got (this one just lights the led up red all the time, one currently fitted it switches back every few seconds)

Theres a resistor inside, a capacitor, and 3 diodes. Still got about 1mm of the potting left to strip off (acetone being used to soften it up then scraping away the top layer). Once that last bit is off hopefully can identify the diodes a bit better, it appears the capacitor is marked 473k though can't make out the voltage on it, would assume its over 12v but not sure as yet (its fallen apart - not sure if its the fault, or just a reaction to the acetone)

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Re: Astra 2002 Koltec GSI not switching to LPG

#11 Post by Brian_H » Fri Apr 01, 2016 11:17 pm

Also mine appears to only be rpm filter, I would assume this is taking the feed from the coil pack trigger and presenting it in a particular cleaned fashion to the lpg ecu?

I can't immediately see where its going either, but will try to trace wires back when i get chance (its located in the footwell next to the lpg ecu in my case)

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Re: Astra 2002 Koltec GSI not switching to LPG

#12 Post by rich r » Mon Apr 04, 2016 8:02 am

That 47nF capacitor (473k=47000pF=47nF, 10%) will probably be rated at something high like 400V, as plastic film capacitors generally are. I'm guessing at the type based on the value and the way it's marked. So I wouldn't worry about it, as it'll be plenty more than the 14V or so it has to deal with.
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Re: Astra 2002 Koltec GSI not switching to LPG

#13 Post by LPGC » Mon Apr 04, 2016 3:48 pm

With just those components inside it won't be much of a problem to make another, Bri!
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Re: Astra 2002 Koltec GSI not switching to LPG

#14 Post by Brian_H » Mon Apr 04, 2016 6:12 pm

If I could identify them yes!

Theres 5 components - it appears the capacitor has disintegrated (not sure if thats down to the fault, or removing the potting using acetone or perhaps a bit of both).

It also appears the component i at first thought was a resistor is actually another diode - Blue body with Brown/orange/black/black bands - this is the one marked D1 with polarity markings so can't be a resistor. That leaves the other 3 diodes - the only marking i can see on those appears to be 1m (though it seems 1n is more likely, this doesn't appear to be thats marked).

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Re: Astra 2002 Koltec GSI not switching to LPG

#15 Post by Gilbertd » Mon Apr 04, 2016 7:01 pm

The other 3 diodes look like you could try something like 1N4148 signal diodes. Them and a cap and all you need to do is have a guess at what the other diode is. Usual method oof removing potting is with freezer spray, it cracks it and just falls off but it's a bit late telling you that now.....
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Re: Astra 2002 Koltec GSI not switching to LPG

#16 Post by Brian_H » Mon Apr 04, 2016 8:04 pm

Well that might prove useful if i decide to attack the suspected semi working one, Cheers for the heads up on that though that gives another weapon to try on it (sounds better than the answers found on google - one of which was microwaving it.....)

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Re: Astra 2002 Koltec GSI not switching to LPG

#17 Post by rich r » Tue Apr 05, 2016 8:04 am

I don't think D1 is a diode. The other diodes (very clearly glass encapsulated small signal silicon diodes) have a different symbol on the silk screen print. Secondly it looks like a metal film resistor, by the spiral of conductive material on a ceramic former - however the value seems unusual and you'd expect the label to be R something like unpopulated R1 in the middle. Can you measure its resistance in both directions, and also try warming it to see if the resistance changes substantially (in case it's a thermistor providing inrush current limiting or something)?
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Re: Astra 2002 Koltec GSI not switching to LPG

#18 Post by Gilbertd » Tue Apr 05, 2016 9:46 am

The symbol on the pcb would suggest a capacitor to me but then it wouldn't be marked as D1, I'm thinking it might be a zener?
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Re: Astra 2002 Koltec GSI not switching to LPG

#19 Post by rich r » Tue Apr 05, 2016 11:46 am

Maybe, but it doesn't really look like most zener diodes I've come across - generally they look pretty much the same as standard junction diodes.

The D1 and the symbol are confusing- but given the unpopulated pads it looks like the pcb is used for various applications, so there could be anything there!
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Re: Astra 2002 Koltec GSI not switching to LPG

#20 Post by Brian_H » Tue Apr 05, 2016 8:39 pm

The blue component (diode or resistor or otherwise) is open circuit in both directions unfortunately.

Definitely says d1 beneath it, with d2/d3/d4 below the glass diodes. The other disingreated component I believe to be a ceramic capicator.

Either way - I've managed to find one in stock (replacement complete board - the last one the supplier has got and can get!) so have ordered that which should prove if it is the fault or not, Once i know what the state of the one I've got is (I suspect the one still installed in the car is faulty - I know the one i've used Acetone on is completely faulty as it doesn't even try to switch with it installed before i started attacking it!).

Still would like to know what the items are, but if the other one I've got is faulty I'm hoping that I can try the freezer spray trick on it and get a better idea of the markings by doing so.

Also if its of any help the original colour coding on the mystery component is Orange Brown Black Black, with orange being the band closest to the legs. The other end didn't appear to have a band on, though it also didn't appear to have any blue paint on either so it may have done so. If its a diode this would indicate its a 1n13 diode IF I'm interpreting the bands correctly, which I'm not sure I am? Or a 130ohm resistor if it was a resistor?

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