Combo gsi running fault

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idp500
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Combo gsi running fault

#1 Post by idp500 » Fri Jan 16, 2015 7:27 pm

Hi guy's not been on here for a while as all has been running fine :)

Got a really curious fault I could do with a bit of input please, been running a combo van 2003 gsi system for over 5 years now and have put nearly 100,00 miles on the clock.had a few niggles along the way, failed solenoid,58x module problems,changing filters,setting gas pressure,etc etc,nothing too much of a challenge.
However,at various times over the time I've owned it ,during really wet weather or flooded roads the gas system will just cuts out and can be really temperamental until such time as things dry out again a few days later.
A few of the symptoms as follows; initially misfires and changes back to petrol,can sometimes stop,switch ignition on and off again system resets and runs on gas again,but usually only for a few miles.sometimes the green light just flashes but no change over,sometimes blinks fast.can sometimes can hear tank solenoid operate when ignition turned on( guess it shouldn't with engine stationary but always has without any problems) engine will crank but not fire on the gas.
Been through things as far as I can (am an electrician by trade) have millbrook data sheets, checked wiring connections etc but no success.its playing up at the moment and I'm getting pretty hacked off with it.guess I should get it looked at,but really don't like to be beaten.
Am wondering if the lambda signals are going astray for instance as the connectors are in the line of fire so to speak,but I have checked them and all seems ok..fault has never blown a fuse,might be easier if it had!
Anyways,any advice great fully recieved.
Regards,ian.

Brian_H
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Re: Combo gsi running fault

#2 Post by Brian_H » Fri Jan 16, 2015 10:52 pm

It has been known by others for lambda sensors to get wet and end up with the heater voltage getting shorted to the sensor wires when it gets wet, though not something seen generally on the factory fit systems. Next time it happens see if you can monitor the lambda sensor voltage. Thought if you say it won't even start on gas when it happens i'd look at the front solenoid coil - I've found the plastic cracks with extended use and this may be allowing water to get into the coil and cause issues (the front and rear coil are usually wired in the same circuit so a fault in one may stop the other working)

I take it your seeing no fault codes being logged by either the car or the gas system? (what you describe doesn't suggest to me that the gas is seeing anything wrong enough to give a code, but the car might do)

idp500
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Re: Combo gsi running fault

#3 Post by idp500 » Sat Jan 17, 2015 11:17 am

Hi Brian,
Thanks for the reply.
No fault codes or engine management light on the petrol side of things,though I'm wondering if the fast flash on the gas chage over switch is indicating a fault?
Pretty certain the front solenoid is not a problem as that was changed out maybe 18 months ago,plus it is relatively high up on the vehicle and shielded from moisture/wet.
Interesting points re the shorting on the 02 sensors,which does make sense,am thinking the post cat sensor would be a good bet.dusting down the AVO and heading out to take a peek shortly.
Will report back!
Thanks,ian.

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Re: Combo gsi running fault

#4 Post by Brian_H » Sat Jan 17, 2015 5:08 pm

How fast is fast? If it's around 2 seconds it's waitiing for something to happen before switching. Usually temperature. If it's faster then it's reporting a problem which you should be able to narrow down with the fault codes off the necam itself with the grey wire.

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Re: Combo gsi running fault

#5 Post by idp500 » Sat Jan 17, 2015 7:58 pm

Hi Brian,
Yes extra fast,rather than just the normal flash before switch over,helpful to confirm I can read fault codes from that.
Anyways an update on progress gained today between dodging the showers.

Disconnected both O2 sensors,measured approx 4 ohms across both heater circuits,neither of the sensor circuits are shorted to the heater windings.
Have a 12v supply at both connectors on the wiring loom,with switch in petrol and LPG mode.

No obvious point of water ingress,or corrosion at terminal pins,the post cat sensor + connector behind the sump does look to me to be more susseptable to a good dose of water.

Put it all back together and it runs perfectly on the LPG the contrary bl**dy thing.

Will fully weatherproof the cable connectors as see how we go,any other ideas appreciated
Thanks for the help,regards,Ian.

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Re: Combo gsi running fault

#6 Post by LPGC » Sat Jan 17, 2015 8:14 pm

Just a possible...

If you get a misfire the lambda will show wrong anyway, most likely lean. If it reads lean for a few seconds that's enough for the system to detect a fault and switch back. Spark plugs being the simplest reason / repair.

Simon
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Brian_H
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Re: Combo gsi running fault

#7 Post by Brian_H » Sat Jan 17, 2015 8:22 pm

certainly worth checking if it hasn't been looked at (the plugs as pointed out by Simon).

If you can find the grey wire shown in this link > http://homepage.ntlworld.com/paul.joyce ... 20wire.jpg and short it to ground it should flash a sequence of lights on the gauge to show what it thinks is wrong

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/paul.joyce ... 0Codes.pdf , This will give some idea of the basic codes. If you get anything not on there post back with what its doing if you can't find anything in the search here.

Also to note on the plugs use the standard plugs advised for the car, Doesn't need anything special (they can cause more problems than they solve from reports here).

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Re: Combo gsi running fault

#8 Post by idp500 » Sat Jan 17, 2015 9:27 pm

Point taken re the plugs,I've always run on NGK BKR6EK as advised by others on here,pjpj from memory. 5's are standard but running on the hotter6's to account for the temp of the gas.always changed plugs out at 10,000 miles or less,it's run faultlessly on them. Apart from wet/flooded roads!
Will see if I have any stored fault codes.
Thanks guys will update in due course,regards,Ian.

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Re: Combo gsi running fault

#9 Post by Brian_H » Sat Jan 17, 2015 10:58 pm

Only other thing that comes to mind as possible is a coil pack starting to play up - its more apparent on lpg than petrol so it may appear fine on petrol but still be faulty.

linked info above is also from pjpj, its more a case of avoiding the specific lpg plugs and if its run ok on the ones you've been using before there shouldn't be any issue with what your using.

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Re: Combo gsi running fault

#10 Post by pjpj » Sun Jan 18, 2015 10:57 am

It sounds more like a cam or crank sensor issue or maybe 58x module.
The code read should help.
Regards

PJPJ



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idp500
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Re: Combo gsi running fault

#11 Post by idp500 » Sun Jan 18, 2015 9:29 pm

Hi pjpj,
Did suspect the crankshaft sensor previously,checked it out and weather proofed the connector,so fairly sure I've ruled that out.the 58x module and camshaft sensor I've checked and both are dry and appear well out of the way of any water ingress.
During the next spell of wet weather when it plays up again,which it will! I will attempt to read the fault codes an report back.
Thanks again,regards,Ian.

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Re: Combo gsi running fault

#12 Post by kbs » Mon Jan 19, 2015 9:20 am

Mine (2004 sytem) seems to store codes until the battery is disconnected for a while.

If yours is the same, you can read the codes now - no need to wait for the next failiure.

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Re: Combo gsi running fault

#13 Post by LPGC » Mon Jan 19, 2015 1:39 pm

A curious fault really..

If a solenoid was packing up, might expect a blown fuse if one was shorting or cutting out / cutting back to petrol if open circuiting. The latter wouldn't give a code, as both solenoids are wired in parallel and as long as one is putting a load on the system no error would be logged.

Can't see lambda faults being the problem, because the petrol engine warning light would then come on.. Most likely the same if a cam or crank sensor was playing up.

Most systems aren't advanced enough to detect faults with single LPG injectors - If there is a fault with one injector, they will usually run on the other 3 cylinders etc.

So now we are left with 58x module problems, LPG ECU problems, intermittent earth point problems, dodgy relays, voltage related problems? Bit more lateral thinking, long shot but possible - If this happens when you've been through a big puddle, is the alternator belt slipping causing a voltage drop (particularly if the battery has a cell going down)?

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idp500
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Re: Combo gsi running fault

#14 Post by idp500 » Thu Jan 22, 2015 8:01 pm

Hi Simon,
Points noted and more to think about,as you say a curious fault and one I've been chasing around for a number of years now.no management light does point to an LPG specific fault.
Can't see it being the 58x module as its high up and out of the way of any weather,earth points is one that has crossed my mind and I did notice the bolt holding the main engine earth at the back of the block is very corroded although the connection looks sound.
Alternator belt should be ok having been changed a couple of times now but certainly worth consideration.
A couple of other symptoms to note,sometimes after a couple of hours running in driving rain it will start playing up.it usually misfires quite noticeably,almost cuts out and changes back to petrol.can pull over,remove ignition key start again and sometimes it will switch over and go again for a few miles,then repeats! It usually runs fine at this time on petrol but very occasionally runs a bit lumpy.
Thanks kbs will see if any fault codes are logged.

Regards,Ian.

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Re: Combo gsi running fault

#15 Post by LPGC » Fri Jan 23, 2015 12:23 am

I believe Kbs was referring to fault codes logged in the LPG system (short grey wire to earth) rather than OBD errors, but of course if you have OBD errors you should address those first and this would likely correct any LPG problems at the same time.

Not all Koltec systems have grey wire to short, though... Not next to the switch or in the relay box! On some Koltec systems there is no OBD1 style 'short the wire to earth' way of reading stored LPG system ECU errors.

Always gets me how petrol ECU's may have no problem reading CPS sensors etc, yet when there is a factory fit LPG problem people start calling such parts into question... if the part works OK according to the more advanced and usually more picky petrol ECU (no fault codes logged for the part according to the petrol system), I usually assume such parts are OK. Meanwhile, cam and crank sensors are easily sourced, more easily than 58x modules anyway, but 58x modules and all Vauxhall ECUs (petrol / LPG) can and do fail anyway, regardless of being kept dry etc.

In your case however, since the problem seems to occur when weather is damp, would be looking at coil packs / sensors / ECU's (including 58x), all parts arguably susceptible to weather conditions and listed in decreasing order of likelihood of being affected by damp.

This would be far from the first Vauxhall I'd seen with intermittent and hard to trace petrol ECU issues, sometimes seemingly climate related! When these start to fail, they are notorious for falsely reporting cam sensor / crank sensor / throttle body / injector issues when actually no fault exists besides the ECU itself - the deluded Vauxhall issue! I keep few Vauxhall petrol and LPG ECU's here, just to try, just in case....

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Re: Combo gsi running fault

#16 Post by pjpj » Wed Jan 28, 2015 2:13 am

This fault is exactly the symptoms I had with a failing 58x module. Eventually it failed altogether.
Regards

PJPJ



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Re: Combo gsi running fault

#17 Post by LPGC » Wed Jan 28, 2015 2:04 pm

Question for PJPJ ./ Brian... In your experiences have you ever known a failing 58x module to cause reported failed cam / crank sensor errors in the petrol ECU?

Simon.
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Re: Combo gsi running fault

#18 Post by Brian_H » Wed Jan 28, 2015 2:15 pm

I've seen a few reports on here of the 58xx module causing problems though not followed closly enough to say for sure. I've not seen that many systems though and those i have seen don't use it (its only used on the vauxhall versions afaik to fool the petrol ecu into working as normal when the injectors are connected).

I'd see no reason it should do so myself, but those errors do seem common from what others have said - Simon or pjpj would be better placed than me to say for sure though.

Are you seeing those errors then? Bearing the age of the vehicle in mind the wiring could be suspect (corroded) or the ecu itself - if you can get access to a suitable ecu then swapping it should rule that out at least.

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Re: Combo gsi running fault

#19 Post by pjpj » Wed Jan 28, 2015 3:34 pm

Erm, yes I think it did in my case. Can't remember for sure. It started effecting the petrol running, infact the car wouldn't run at all until I disconnected the 58x when it failed completely. I'm pretty sure I had the engine management light on when the fault was serious enough and causing poor running. It would depend upon the fault in the 58x module as to whether it would show in the ECU log. At first, for me it didn't light the EML.

When it first started failing I removed the 58x module and gave it a bit of wire tugging and sat it on top of the house boiler for 3 days. I then reconnected (Do not re-bolt into position) and taped onto the harness. It worked perfectly for a further 6 - 12 months.
Regards

PJPJ



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idp500
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Re: Combo gsi running fault

#20 Post by idp500 » Sun Feb 01, 2015 4:48 pm

Hi pjpj,
Been having a look through the wiring diagrams for the koltec system that millbrook kindly sent me (think I may have forwarded a copy to you many moons ago). the way I read it, the 58x module is not in circuit unless the vehicle is set for lpg. It appears to be basically a signal generator for the crankshaft sensor and replicates the signal produced by the petrol ecu.
as a general rule when mine goes into fault and switches back it runs fine with a couple of exceptions,and the management light has never come on.
the 58x module is sealed in potting compound so I can't see water ingress being a problem,however your experiences suggest otherwise! I can see a problem with water getting into the crankshaft sensor wiring/connector and shorting/ corrupting the signal and cooking the module that way.have made sure the connections to the crank sensor are well waterproof and so far so good,drove through steady rain and wet roads for over an hour yesterday with no problems. Must get round to checking for fault codes :oops:

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