VSR prevention tips.

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LPGC
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Re: VSR prevention tips.

#41 Post by LPGC » Fri Oct 08, 2021 2:47 pm

I've seen Gerard Budgetbond today.

On petrol the fuel trims were high positive at idle but normal-ish under load. The engine wasn't happy running on petrol at idle, I suspected a problem with petrol injectors and then Gerard said he'd broken/damaged petrol injectors when trying to fit the type of gas entry points that space petrol injectors away from the port runners (instead of fitting a spud in the manifold a hollow tube with a spout is fitted where the petrol injector was, the gas enters via the spout, the petrol injector fires into the top of the tube)... He'd since had the petrol injectors reconditioned and fitted normal spuds in the manifold instead of the spacers but I suspect the petrol injectors are dodgy and/or a problem with the MAF (could just be dirty - Toyota/Lexus MAFs do seem to suffer from yellow dust build up from some types of air filter).

On gas fuel trims were negative at idle and ginj was only around 2.5ms, gas pressure was 1.4 bar. I could tell from this and by looking at the shape of the map and 'collected points' stored in his ECU that the nozzles could do with being smaller and/or pressure could do with turning down. Gerard had put some sort of sealing paste on the injectors pipe connections on the injectors so I didn't check nozzles size, instead just turned down pressure to 1 bar and recalibrated at that.

If a lube system is fitted (good idea) the design of the plenum and port runners means it would be best to fit a 4 branch lube spider rather than a single point of lube entry, the spider would prevent the chance of pooling and see that even if fluid dropped out of atomisation the fluid would still roll downhill (aided by the direction of incoming air) to the intake valves for each cylinder.
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Pinger
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Re: VSR prevention tips.

#42 Post by Pinger » Fri Oct 08, 2021 5:12 pm

LPGC wrote:
Fri Oct 08, 2021 2:33 pm

The point I was making regards carbs was the manifolds often had unequal length intake runners to different cylinders yet the cylinders still obviously got a similar mix of petrol and air.
Less the length of the runners but where their mouths are in relation to the butterfly. The furthest away one gets most fuel due to the inertia of wet fluid. A log type manifold would have a carb placed centrally. A typical say, four cylinder FI inlet manifold with four equal length runners fed from a plenum is really just an end-fed log manifold. Irrespective of height variations, fitting a spider (as you do) is a good move on that type of set-up.

Budgetbond
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Re: VSR prevention tips.

#43 Post by Budgetbond » Sun Oct 10, 2021 11:59 am

Yeah thanks v much Simon, it was great to finally meet and see the 'Messiah' at work although calibrating is still just as mind-boggling to me!!
Tho it was good to know id managed to get it clos-ish it was running v smooth and smoother on the way home, am just going to leave it now so it'll save me the cost of a new laptop battery too!!!
I've re-tightened up my ecu again today and I'll clean up my maf tommorrow, yeah I've got one of those aftermarket air filters on that's basically just a piece of sponge.
Yeah when I initially did my install I tried those injector adapters cos they were on offer where I bought the rest of my ancillary s from and I was a bit scared of drilling the manifold at the time, and tho I could possibly see them working perhaps, they really caused me a massive headache and put my install right back.
Cheers for changing the pressure, yeah I'd sprayed some 'stop leak' stuff from the quid shops it's useful for filling in vac/injector leaks n stuff.I
I'll keep an eye on my mpg again now still too.

So I'd need to drill 4 spud-like probes into each of the runners distributed and branched off from 1 bottle would I (you couldn't have just 1 in the airpi pe before the throttle body could you or do any systems inject it into the gas/liquid itself at any stage?), would a vac system suffice with my engine mainly used just for cruising and how do they alter the flow (how do they alter the flow does gravity come into it at all as well?)

Cheers a lot for your help

LPGC
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Re: VSR prevention tips.

#44 Post by LPGC » Sun Oct 10, 2021 12:27 pm

Pinger wrote:
Fri Oct 08, 2021 5:12 pm
LPGC wrote:
Fri Oct 08, 2021 2:33 pm

The point I was making regards carbs was the manifolds often had unequal length intake runners to different cylinders yet the cylinders still obviously got a similar mix of petrol and air.
Less the length of the runners but where their mouths are in relation to the butterfly. The furthest away one gets most fuel due to the inertia of wet fluid. A log type manifold would have a carb placed centrally. A typical say, four cylinder FI inlet manifold with four equal length runners fed from a plenum is really just an end-fed log manifold. Irrespective of height variations, fitting a spider (as you do) is a good move on that type of set-up.
That's right mate, but an engine with a carb at one end would still run on all cylinders because mixture wouldn't be too dissimilar across cylinders... and we don't need to be as exacting with lube dosage as we do with fuel dosage. There is potential for lube splitters to introduce some dissimilar dosage across cylinders themselves, so it can be a good idea to keep it simple and not involve a splitter if the engine design doesn't warrant a splitter.
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LPGC
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Re: VSR prevention tips.

#45 Post by LPGC » Sun Oct 10, 2021 12:34 pm

Budgetbond wrote:
Sun Oct 10, 2021 11:59 am
Yeah thanks v much Simon, it was great to finally meet and see the 'Messiah' at work although calibrating is still just as mind-boggling to me!!
Tho it was good to know id managed to get it clos-ish it was running v smooth and smoother on the way home, am just going to leave it now so it'll save me the cost of a new laptop battery too!!!
I've re-tightened up my ecu again today and I'll clean up my maf tommorrow, yeah I've got one of those aftermarket air filters on that's basically just a piece of sponge.
Yeah when I initially did my install I tried those injector adapters cos they were on offer where I bought the rest of my ancillary s from and I was a bit scared of drilling the manifold at the time, and tho I could possibly see them working perhaps, they really caused me a massive headache and put my install right back.
Cheers for changing the pressure, yeah I'd sprayed some 'stop leak' stuff from the quid shops it's useful for filling in vac/injector leaks n stuff.I
I'll keep an eye on my mpg again now still too.

So I'd need to drill 4 spud-like probes into each of the runners distributed and branched off from 1 bottle would I (you couldn't have just 1 in the airpi pe before the throttle body could you or do any systems inject it into the gas/liquid itself at any stage?), would a vac system suffice with my engine mainly used just for cruising and how do they alter the flow (how do they alter the flow does gravity come into it at all as well?)

Cheers a lot for your help
Good to meet you and your wife too Dave. Thanks again to your wife for the presents she gave my young son!

Your engine design does warrant a lube splitter/spider, it is all uphill from the throttle body to the engine's cylinder head inlet ports. A vac system would suffice, or you could fit an electronic lube system if you preferred. To feed lube into the port runners on the inlet manifold you'd drill and tap 4 holes (one in each runner) the 4 outlet nozzles from the splitter then fit into the holes, the lube bottle feeds the splitter. You don't want gravity to come into it so you'd try to fit the lube bottle at around the same height as the points of lube entry on the manifold inlet runners.

It is possible to fit points of lube entry into the gas injector pipes between injectors and manifold spuds.

Some electronic types can inject lube into the main injectors gas feed pipe between pressure reducer and injectors but I don't like that type because they involve lube fluid going through gas injectors and because I don't think they're likely to give equal lube dosage across engine cylinders as other methods.
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Budgetbond
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Re: VSR prevention tips.

#46 Post by Budgetbond » Sun Oct 10, 2021 2:27 pm

Hey cheers Simon youre welcome hope the presents r of interest was great to meet you.

Yeah i see about the uphill thing can anything help with the atomisation of the fluid at all to prevent pooling/running downhill? Theyre must be some form of dosage devices i suppose running not too rich or reduced doses increases atomisation at the cost of effectiveness does it?

And i suppose feeding into the gas line itself is this thro like a syrringe or something thro the rubber pipes themselve/s and does the flashube liquid do any harm/get used up/have any benefit if they do run thro the gas injectors at all?

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Re: VSR prevention tips.

#47 Post by Brian_H » Sun Oct 10, 2021 3:04 pm

You want to use a splitter like this > https://www.lpgshop.co.uk/lubricant-dis ... tter-4cyl/ (though you'd need to find one in stock, which lpgshop don't appear to have) on the end of the valve saver reservoir outlet. The idea is you have the connection past the downhill part of the manifold, and rely on the air being drawn through to send it the right way.

The electronic versions will pulse every so often - the better ones (Flashlube) do this in time with injector pulsing (as you t into an injector wire) so the dose increases with revs. Atiker just fires every so often with no adjustment. The LPGtech version is similar, but can be adjusted apparantly with software (Not tried that one so cannot confirm how easy it is to do that, or availablilty of the required lead though I do have the software).

The manual ones just rely on vacuum to regulate flow and have a thumbscrew to adjust. I suspect my problems have been cramped engine bays where its impossible to find a suitable location with the right height to make it work with vacuum. Isn't an issue with electronic as far as i've found though.

Feeding into the gas injectors Simon has said before has the potential to cause problems as the injectors might not be compatible with the fluid, as well as the distribution issues in the end of his last post above yours.

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Re: VSR prevention tips.

#48 Post by LPGC » Sun Oct 10, 2021 7:19 pm

Saved me some typing, Cheers Bri :-)

Easy to fit the splitter, just drill a 5mm hole and tap to 6mm like you did for the spuds on the manifold but just a bit further back on the manifold where the manifold's runners go downhill toward the cylinder head. LPGShop may be out of stock but maybe Tinleytech have them in stock?

Some of the older electronic types cannot feed into the manifold or into pipes from injectors to the manifold, they have to be fed into the gas line between the pressure reducer and injectors... because if you feed them into vacuum the vacuum sucks all the fluid out of the reservoir. Some of these look identical to newer lube systems (same design bottle, same looking electronics, same interface cable for programming) but apparently the newer units can be connected to vacuum without having all the fluid sucked out of the reservoir... I haven't confirmed this yet myself but have been told so by Tinleytech. For sure the Flashlube electronic type can feed into vacuum with no risk of all the fluid being sucked out of the lube bottle. But the type that was commonly fitted with BRC installs has to feed into the gas line between reducer and injectors or if feeding into vacuum will soon have all it's fluid sucked into the manifold.
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Budgetbond
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Re: VSR prevention tips.

#49 Post by Budgetbond » Mon Oct 11, 2021 11:28 pm

Cheers for all that info, I was looking for an easy solution for something that actually isn't that difficult in the first place!!!
Drilling into the manifolds again isn't that diff tho I was a bit scared of it the first time round!!
Tbh it's quite a good solution really.
Incidentally in systems where you do introduce it directly into the gas lines what's the pressure /force of the gas in the pipes for atomization surely it can't be as much as feeding it into the airflow in the manifold either can it?

I've actually been reading up on the various valve saver fluids, developed as an alternative to lead when being withdrawn to protect valves specifically (which lead was only a by product of let's face it) and some of them actually can be better than lead in that respect, the idea being like lead introduce a soft metal type molecule that when combusted forms it's oxide which then adheres a bit and forms a soft metal like cushion on the valves which can then be further covered with carbon etc. They use compounds of potassium, manganese and sodium. They do supposedly have a lasting memory effect like lead as well to stay on the valves. I suppose the oil carrier contents like a lube etc.
Only probs is I think the even worse thing is excessive heat and I hope I haven't done too much irreparable damage already lean running and overheating already in getting me thus far and that's lead to the poor petrol idling.
Generally how much are the fluids and how much do you get through presumably you can turn up or down the dose?

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Re: VSR prevention tips.

#50 Post by Brian_H » Tue Oct 12, 2021 9:10 am

Depends what dispenser you use. The vacuum ones have a thumbscrew to adjust the drip rate. The better electronic ones have either a switch to adjust or software.

Correct dose rate is 1ml fluid to 1 litre of fluid used.

If you had signs of vsr being a problem Simon would have told you and you'd see it on gas as well. Compression test would tell you, but sounds like he already pointed you towards the petrol injectors?

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Re: VSR prevention tips.

#51 Post by Brian_H » Tue Oct 12, 2021 9:11 am

And price wise around £50 for 5 litres. Most of the kits come with a small bottle to get you going though.

Budgetbond
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Re: VSR prevention tips.

#52 Post by Budgetbond » Tue Oct 12, 2021 10:01 am

Hey right cheers for that, thats reassuring, so about a tenner a litre and did you say that should lasts about 6 months/ x miles approx?

And I presume with a vacuum fed one it still obviously feeds it whilst running on petrol

Ps. Oh n cheers for your help Bri, I've sent u a pm

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Re: VSR prevention tips.

#53 Post by Brian_H » Tue Oct 12, 2021 10:37 pm

Depends how much you drive, I was finding a fill of the reservoir was good for around a month or so.

Yes vacuum one operates as long as its got fluid in it. But no harm from that really, and ideally you want to be on gas as much as possible anyway. I only tend to use petrol on warm up or if the gas has run out.

Seen your pm, haven't had chance to reply yet, Will do.

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