King ecu solenoid issues

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hitman2
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King ecu solenoid issues

#1 Post by hitman2 » Thu Apr 01, 2021 7:41 pm

hi guys , hitman here had to reregister as 2 due to website password issue , anyway here I am as hitman2

car has 2 solenoids on gas side one at reducer one on tank multivalve


had a few issues with front solenoid valve not opening when system was hot , automatically assumed it was dodgy coil so new coil sent for and fitted , in the interim ran the car with the internals of the valve removed and all good.

now after fitting new coil and cutting back wires to make new joints , having same issue , car will start ok when cold more or less straight over to gas once up to temp. and will run until next stopped , then after restart trips straight back to petrol .

have looked at both solenoid valves and all ok clean nothing to cause sticking , also noted that both solenoids get signal to open at same time , thougth maybe tank should get signal open after system health check then front solenoid would get signal open after rpm threshold and reducer temp achieved. but no both valves get signal to open after system self health check ie 15 secs after start of engine

so any ideas for me to try to resolve the problem?

and what is the proper sequence of events ? (Im wondering if the rev threshold and temp of reducer starts gas injecrtors pulsing taking over from petrol injection rather than opening front solenoid.

no one to take it to so need to sort myself and dont want to particularly run forever without front valve internals removed

tia

and happy easter

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Re: King ecu solenoid issues

#2 Post by Brian_H » Thu Apr 01, 2021 8:20 pm

Could be the ECU playing up with heat. You might find operating them via a relay triggered by the ECU solenoid output to help if that's the case. That would reduce the load required so should cut down the heat in the ECU slightly.

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Re: King ecu solenoid issues

#3 Post by Brian_H » Thu Apr 01, 2021 8:25 pm

Also on the password front, if you don't know the email you used to reset the password we can probably find it for you. Will drop A PM to your old account now which should trigger an email to it.

hitman2
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Re: King ecu solenoid issues

#4 Post by hitman2 » Thu Apr 01, 2021 8:45 pm

Cheers Brian

No problems with using new username so I just need to follow this
https://youtu.be/Tw9QkkT2ptU

Using the wires currently on the solenoid as the trigger wires?

As you can tell I'm not too au fait with electrics

Im in rural Portugal so things aren't easy tbh

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Re: King ecu solenoid issues

#5 Post by Brian_H » Thu Apr 01, 2021 9:13 pm

You'd connect the wires currently on the solenoid coming from the ecu to the trigger or coil wires, then connect the positive side of the wires the the coils to the put of the relay, a 12v feed from somewhere to the input of the relay (battery may be easiest for that) and the other end of the solenoid wires to earth, either negative side of the battery or somewhere suitable.

Might be worth taking the leads from either side if the battery that feed the ECU and giving them a good clean first though, and pull the fuse out of the holder and check the contacts look clean. Bad contact there might be just enough to cause problems.

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Re: King ecu solenoid issues

#6 Post by hitman2 » Thu Apr 01, 2021 9:51 pm

Thanks Brian

Actually noticed the earth from the ecu was showing some verdigris, hopefully a clean up might sort it, have ordered a 5 pin relay from amazon.de anyway.

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Re: King ecu solenoid issues

#7 Post by LPGC » Fri Apr 02, 2021 10:35 am

I forget what spec King ECU you have but it may have 2 solenoid outputs (one for the tank, one for the reducer). If it has 2 outputs they'd both normally be wired up to respective components but some installers would wire both tank and reducer solenoids to the reducer solenoid output and tick the 'one solenoid' box in software (to prevent diagnostics detecting open circuit tank solenoid coil). Could be relevant in case you want to use 2 external relays. If you only drive a relay coil from an ECU solenoid output you may need to disable diagnostics in case the ECU sees the high resistance of relay coils as open circuit.

'Verdigris' may be the problem, especially if 'hot start' is selected in software.

Between Bri's suggestion and verdigris I expect you'll get it sorted. But another couple of ideas just in case...

If there's a gas leak and 'hot start' is selected there may not be enough prime time to rebuild pressure between solenoids opening and start of gas demand, in which case it would switch back to petrol due to low pressure.

As some of these ECU's get old they can start to detect phantom errors such as e.g. open circuit solenoid coils, in which case (if the system refuses to switch due to seeing errors) the problem can be solved by disabling diagnostics.
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disco stu
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Re: King ecu solenoid issues

#8 Post by disco stu » Fri Apr 02, 2021 10:45 am

Verdigris-that's my new word for the day! I had to Google it. It appears common, so I'm surprised I've never heard it before.

Sorry, back on track!
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hitman2
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Re: King ecu solenoid issues

#9 Post by hitman2 » Fri Apr 02, 2021 1:00 pm

Thanks Simon

Re ecu, its tucked up out of the way behind the bulkhead so can't see any markings on it but the cabling had a KF144U sticker on it, if that means anything to you?

Its the 8 cylinder version on 4.2 supercharged 2007 range rover converted in 2013.

I don't have start on gas with hot engine selected.
On sensors page it has gas electrovalves opened in advance selected but doesn't have tank solenoid valve with dedicated wire selected.
Enable diagnosis is selected on the injector check page.


I have made good the earth and 'think' issue might be resolved but can only be 100% once been on a decent run, unfortunately we aren't allowed to leave our area, heavy lockdown over Easter and roadblocks to stop people from moving around, Portugal taking this thing quite to the highest level ๐Ÿ˜ณ

Anyway hopefully the clean up has sorted it


Whats your thoughts on the sequence of events?

Should both solenoids activate at same time

And its the rev threshold and temperature parameters that start the gas system taking over from petrol once they are met?


I'll update in a few days

Thanks again both ๐Ÿ‘

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Re: King ecu solenoid issues

#10 Post by hitman2 » Sun May 02, 2021 1:44 pm

Thread update, wired in the relay to the front solenoid, problem was still there on occasions, ended up thinking it was a faulty multivalve at one stage, seem to have been chasing my tail for ages on this ๐Ÿ˜ญ.

Now after remaking the connections on the trigger wires to the relay, I've tested it about a dozen times and appears to be OK so far but still think the lpg ecu could be starting to play up, time will tell.

With running without the reducer solenoid post in place I discovered a small leak at one of the 4 way splitters, unfortunately on handling it the wires from the gas temperature probe snapped, probably due to heat degradation.

Q 1 I assume Im OK to run without that sensor working?

Q2 If I wanted to stick a resistor there temporarily what size would be the best?

Thanks in advance

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Re: King ecu solenoid issues

#11 Post by hitman2 » Sun May 02, 2021 8:07 pm

Stop press had to resort to removing the front solenoid internals again, looks like intermittent fault from ecu, sometimes runs fine sometimes unable to get signal to open valve?


Still appreciate any input re this, and what size resistor to put in place of the gas temp sensor as an interim measure

Thanks ๐Ÿ‘

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Re: King ecu solenoid issues

#12 Post by LPGC » Sun May 02, 2021 8:18 pm

Q1 OK-ish if you do fit a resistor, probably not OK if you don't (at least not without changing ECU temp correction)
Q2 Reckon around 1K but check to make sure this gives gas temp reading of around 50C.
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Re: King ecu solenoid issues

#13 Post by LPGC » Sun May 02, 2021 8:34 pm

On the solenoids problem...
If the (edit external) relay operates it should see the solenoid coil get full 12v so if the relay operates and the solenoid doesn't open there'd be a problem with the solenoid/coil.
If the (edit external) relay doesn't operate it could be because of an ECU internal relay problem, or if it's wired to the same ECU output that still directly drives the other solenoid coil there could be a fault (short) on that circuit, or could be something else seeing voltage to the ECU fall (bad live feed to the ECU loom, bad connection between ECU multiplug connector and ECU), or bad circuit board track or component(s) inside the ECU. Even a bad earth to the ECU could still cause lack of solenoid coil output switching because those feeds are switched by internal relays that will take a certain voltage themselves to trigger - I've seen a lot of installs where the ECU would still talk to a laptop and still measure Pinj etc correctly but had poor main power connections leading to low voltage to gas injectors and drive-ability problems, if such problems were bad enough they could affect solenoid coils opening too.
Last edited by LPGC on Mon May 03, 2021 9:37 am, edited 2 times in total.
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hitman2
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Re: King ecu solenoid issues

#14 Post by hitman2 » Sun May 02, 2021 8:43 pm

Cheers for both Simon

Intermittent fault on the front solenoid, sometimes it works open/closed on request, other times nothing doing, thinking fault on ecu or loom, its 7 years old now and its hot under that bonnet, might (have lol) given up on chasing my tail on it.

Got a local guy here but he won't look at it as he's a brc agent and knows nothing else and only wants to sell me a new system.

Will try and pick up a cpl of resistors and see if I can get as near as dammit 50 deg on gas sensor.

Cheers ๐Ÿ‘๐Ÿบ

Eta ended up wiring the front solenoid into a 12v supply when ignition is on, so that issue is bodged, obviously can't use diagnostics on the lpg ecu as it shows open circuit for the reducer solenoid ๐Ÿ˜Ž
Last edited by hitman2 on Mon May 03, 2021 10:17 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: King ecu solenoid issues

#15 Post by LPGC » Mon May 03, 2021 10:03 am

Depending on which version of software you're using you may be able to read ECU feed voltage in the 'Display' screen, see if that falls when solenoids and/or gas injectors are in operation.
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Re: King ecu solenoid issues

#16 Post by hitman2 » Mon May 03, 2021 10:19 am

Ok thanks Simon, I'll check it out, but as above I have managed a work around that hopefully won't cause any issues.

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Re: King ecu solenoid issues

#17 Post by hitman2 » Mon May 03, 2021 3:27 pm

Workaround fails too, have resorted to removing spring and plunger again, tested loads of times with solenoid in view and soon as ignition on, plunger pulls in, repeated test with plunger inserted and first time car will run on gas, once switched off and started again most of the time it won't run on gas, suspect once pressured up in line valve becomes pressure locked and doesn't operate?

Have even held hold of valve plunger when ignition on and there is a good strength there with valve removed from reducer.

It's got me beat tbh.๐Ÿ˜ญ

Resistor fitted to gas temp sensor and shows 46 degrees c when reducer temp is 76, hopefully this will be ok for a while until I get another sensor ๐Ÿค”

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Re: King ecu solenoid issues

#18 Post by Brian_H » Mon May 03, 2021 4:55 pm

I'd think its possible that as you try to drive the gas injectors via the ecu, that its showing up a lack of power and then the solenoid coil can't hold the spring pressure back anymore. It might be worth checking what sort of voltage your seeing at that point, if you don't have access to the diagnostics software, a multimeter on the solenoid connections on one side and a good earth on the other should give an idea what to look for.

You mentioned having checked and cleaned the earth connection, did you also check the fuse connection and the plug onto the ecu for any corrosion?

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Re: King ecu solenoid issues

#19 Post by hitman2 » Mon May 03, 2021 5:10 pm

Hi Brian, the front solenoid was being held open by a relay, with the trigger wires fired from a 12v supply and earth, so totally separate from the lpg ecu. Iyswim

Checked the fuse yes, all clean, never checked the plug into the ecu as its tucked right behind the bulkhead, but as stated front solenoid driven by bypassing lpg ecu and problem persists

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Re: King ecu solenoid issues

#20 Post by LPGC » Tue May 04, 2021 10:30 am

hitman2 wrote: โ†‘
Mon May 03, 2021 5:10 pm
Hi Brian, the front solenoid was being held open by a relay, with the trigger wires fired from a 12v supply and earth, so totally separate from the lpg ecu. Iyswim

Checked the fuse yes, all clean, never checked the plug into the ecu as its tucked right behind the bulkhead, but as stated front solenoid driven by bypassing lpg ecu and problem persists
Relay circuit only separate if it doesn't get the 12v feed for the switched solenoid from the LPG ECU's main feed and if the solenoid coil gets it's earth from not the LPG ECU's earth ..(?). I.e. If the problem were the LPG ECU's connection to the battery a relay connected to the same feed would also see low voltage, or the problem could be the coil's earth (direct to battery / body / or from LPG system's earth).

Not related to the above, it may be worth checking the connection between ECU pins and the loom connector (tarnishing / discoloration / corrosion).
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