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 Post subject: Re: W220 S320 LPG ??
PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2016 11:06 pm 
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The 827 is still pretty quick even this days with hybrid charger set-ups and whatever else they have under the bonnets but that's mainly because cars these days are bloated by comparison. If a Fiesta ST180 weighs in heavier than my 827 Sterling, something ain't right! :lol:

I've noticed even when i'm running low on gas and on a longish run before i fill up it tends to "run out" of gas before it should. Obviously using the gas at a reasonable rate on the motorway the pressure drop causes a temperature drop in the tank and hence a further pressure drop. Switch back to petrol for a few minutes and all of a sudden i can get another 15-20 miles out of the gas! :shock:
It comes as no surprise to me that an SGi system would show this up when booted as the temperature sender in the reducer would pick this up. Then it's down to the setting up i suppose.

Talking of temperature related faults, just for fun i set the error reporting for the Lambda sensor last time i hooked it up to the lappy. Tonight the yellow LED started flashing slowly, shortly after a warm (not hot) start. When it's been cold i've had a bit of hunting and i suspected this was down to the Lambda sensor being cold. This more or less confirms it - i'll increase the Lambda delay so it runs open loop a bit longer from cold to see if that fixes things.
Either that or i'll leave it on petrol then switch it over once the temperature gauge starts to move and let the Leo do its stuff automatically from there. :wink: :D

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 Post subject: Re: W220 S320 LPG ??
PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2016 8:51 am 
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LairdScooby wrote:
just for fun i set the error reporting for the Lambda sensor last time i hooked it up to the lappy.
Just for fun? You mean you don't have it on all the time to warn you of impending doom? I use it to tell me when I'm getting low on gas as it goes lean for a long time even if I'm driving in traffic and the loss of performance isn't noticed and it told me that my lambda sensor was going to sleep after a prolonged time cruising at a constant speed. It's there for a reason, use it.

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'98 Ex-Police Range Rover 4.0, Singlepoint AEB Leo, my daily motor
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 Post subject: Re: W220 S320 LPG ??
PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2016 2:16 pm 
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Good point regards vehicle weights (old vs new).. But I was talking about the big V8/V12 supercharged vehicles with the kind of power figures old cars never had.

LairdScooby wrote:
It comes as no surprise to me that an SGi system would show this up when booted as the temperature sender in the reducer would pick this up. Then it's down to the setting up i suppose.
The reducer temp sensor wouldn't show up anything but the vapour pressure sensor would pick up on the low pressure and the ECU would force a switch back to petrol...To avoid lean running as per Gilbert's point!

Looking forward to your first dabbles with sequential systems mate! :lol:

Simon

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 Post subject: Re: W220 S320 LPG ??
PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2016 5:22 pm 
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I ran rover 827's for 15 years on lpg useing leonardo and omvl r90 vap. no problems booting it. what axis have you mounted the vap? if its mounted across the axis of the car it will be affected by rapid acceleration and brake ing, I mounted mine so it was parallel to the sidewall and bolted to the two big bolts holding the top swinging arm.

it did tend to top out at 130, warning for you the rev limiter does not work on lpg only on petrol.

have you checked the air valve that alters the air tract at different revs it has three positions . I had two of the vacume units fail so it would not alter the air tract corectly.


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 Post subject: Re: W220 S320 LPG ??
PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2016 7:03 pm 
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Gilbertd wrote:
LairdScooby wrote:
just for fun i set the error reporting for the Lambda sensor last time i hooked it up to the lappy.
Just for fun? You mean you don't have it on all the time to warn you of impending doom? I use it to tell me when I'm getting low on gas as it goes lean for a long time even if I'm driving in traffic and the loss of performance isn't noticed and it told me that my lambda sensor was going to sleep after a prolonged time cruising at a constant speed. It's there for a reason, use it.



I had been advised by someone (can't remember who or when) that it was best to leave them alone - however when i say "just for fun" i don't literally mean for fun, it's to find out if the function performs a useful function and it has. Also from what you've just said, it will in the future too. :wink: :D

LPGC wrote:
Good point regards vehicle weights (old vs new).. But I was talking about the big V8/V12 supercharged vehicles with the kind of power figures old cars never had.

LairdScooby wrote:
It comes as no surprise to me that an SGi system would show this up when booted as the temperature sender in the reducer would pick this up. Then it's down to the setting up i suppose.
The reducer temp sensor wouldn't show up anything but the vapour pressure sensor would pick up on the low pressure and the ECU would force a switch back to petrol...To avoid lean running as per Gilbert's point!

Looking forward to your first dabbles with sequential systems mate! :lol:

Simon


I actually meant to type pressure sensor but it was late at night and i didn't! :oops:

I thought you probably meant the big V8/V10/V12 things with superchargers and turbochargers kicking 600bhp+ - if you go back 30-40 years, you were lucky to get 100bhp out of a n/asp 2 litre as standard and 150bhp from a turbo 2 litre (eg MG Montego Turbo) but now you have 1.4 n/asp engines throwing 104bhp out and i'm told the latest 2 litre electric supercharged and turbocharged engine in the new Volvo XC90 boasts 320bhp.

I'm sure i'll have some fun if i go down the SGi route and no doubt raise a few questions on here! :wink: :D

xtype_lpg wrote:
I ran rover 827's for 15 years on lpg useing leonardo and omvl r90 vap. no problems booting it. what axis have you mounted the vap? if its mounted across the axis of the car it will be affected by rapid acceleration and brake ing, I mounted mine so it was parallel to the sidewall and bolted to the two big bolts holding the top swinging arm.

it did tend to top out at 130, warning for you the rev limiter does not work on lpg only on petrol.

have you checked the air valve that alters the air tract at different revs it has three positions . I had two of the vacume units fail so it would not alter the air tract corectly.


I mounted my vap using the same method as you pretty much. I used the swage lines in the bodywork to prevent rotation and just used the front mounting for the upper wishbone. I have a nice short pipe coming out of the vap into the actuator then straight onto the mixer - you can just about see it all in this pic together with the alternative breather arrangement.

Image

It's pretty tight in there but if you've had 827s you'll know how tight it is!

***EDIT*** Forgot to say - yes i've checked the variable length inlet is working as it should, it's a little lazy on my coupe compared to the Sterling but works.

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Last edited by LairdScooby on Fri Jul 08, 2016 11:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: W220 S320 LPG ??
PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2016 9:12 pm 
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Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 5:01 pm
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Location: Yorkshire
LairdScooby wrote:
I actually meant to type pressure sensor but it was late at night and i didn't! :oops:

I thought you probably meant the big V8/V10/V12 things with superchargers and turbochargers kicking 600bhp+ - if you go back 30-40 years, you were lucky to get 100bhp out of a n/asp 2 litre as standard and 150bhp from a turbo 2 litre (eg MG Montego Turbo) but now you have 1.4 n/asp engines throwing 104bhp out and i'm told the latest 2 litre electric supercharged and turbocharged engine in the new Volvo XC90 boasts 320bhp.


Top line, easily done mate.

A 2L today feels like a 2L from 1970... unless it's revved. They all make near 100% volumetric efficiency and hence similar power at medium/low revs. Diesels won't rev but have more bottom end torque (when turbo-charged) but also have too small a power band range to be sporty or nice to drive. Petrol with turbo/supercharger seems the way to go - when converted to LPG of course! But a nice n/a petrol engine is nice too..

I remember the Montego/Maestro turbos and all the mods that worked on them.. You made a picture of 'Fast Car' mag flash before my eyes, front cover was a Maestro Turbo with 'REVO EVOM' painted on the front valance :lol:

Simon

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 Post subject: Re: W220 S320 LPG ??
PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2016 10:11 pm 
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I remember a brief time in the late 80s/early 90s when a 2 litre was quite lively, despite being only 8 valves. Although i've not driven anything "new" for at least a decade now, the ones i drove didn't give their best unless constantly booted and the diseasels were even worse.
I remember Fast Car magazine and it's predecessor, Your Car (i won a sunroof in that!) and then for a while i didn't get any mags for various reasons.
The "REVO EVOM" Maestro sounds quite funny though! :wink: :lol: :D

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 Post subject: Re: W220 S320 LPG ??
PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2016 9:58 am 
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I had a loop from the vap via stepper to the top of the venturi, about 6" between the vap and stepper and about the same coming back from stepper to vap. also try using each of the lambda sensors in turn as some react quicker than others with age. hope you have room to turn the adjusters on the reducer and dont let the vap come in contact with brake pipes.

I also set mine up with a sun 4 gas analyser.


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 Post subject: Re: W220 S320 LPG ??
PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2016 12:41 pm 
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I went for as short a hose as possible between the vap and stepper with the stepper butted up to the mixer stub inside a piece of hose to seal the join to give the best possible response and set the mixer so the stub was horizontal at the bottom facing the vap so i could keep the stepper upright.

There's room to get an 8mm or 10mm combination spanner in to the adjuster screws between the vap and Control Box, you can just see the adjusters in this pic :

Image

I haven't put it on a gas analyser of any description as yet, i have a little Gunsons one that at one time was suspect (but that was down to problems i had with the original BRC system on my Jeep) but i will check it on the Gunsons Gastester at some point and aim for 0.5% +/- 0.25% at idle, the same setting as Rover prescribe for post 92 non-cat 827s so it shouldn't be far out. It may even be running leaner than that at the moment on idle and if so i'll probably leave it there, especially for MoT purposes.

Both Lambda sensors are new, the front is about 2 months older than the rear as the rear one (ironically the one i picked to connect into) decided to die prematurely. Oddly the listing for them also disappeared from ebay about the same time so maybe it was a bad batch.
In the fullness of time i plan o connecting both Lambdas through a SPDT switch so i can switch between sensors, more for the reason that if one goes i can run safely on the other. Also bought one of those gauges that shows the Lambda reading (marketed as an air/fuel ratio gauge) so i can keep an eye on what the mixture is doing and more importantly, how the Lambda is responding.

The vap shouldn't contact the brake pipes at all but i am going to make a heat shield between the two and also one to go under the Leo ECU as it's mounted on an extended bolt for the bulkhead mounted bracket for the brake servo hose. Obviously there's a lot of heat there, back of the engine bay, just above the rear bank exhaust manifold etc so a heatshield will be helpful. :wink: :D

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