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 Post subject: Re: No more gas...
PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2016 3:22 pm 
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Joined: Tue Aug 26, 2014 1:48 pm
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Location: South end of North Yorkshire
I don't tend to go north of York very often, but that's good to know. Usually I fill up at Asda in York at lunchtime, or Morrisons in Bramley just off J1 of the M18 if heading south of Doncaster.

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2004 Subaru Outback 3.0Rn auto (LPG)
1991 Mitsubishi Pajero 2.5 LWB (WVO)
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 Post subject: Re: No more gas...
PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2016 4:25 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2012 12:21 pm
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rich r wrote:
Out of interest what price were those two places near Hinckley charging for LPG? You tend to find the areas with lots of LPG pumps are also the areas where the price is lowest. So for example at the moment, the Birmingham area has loads selling below 50p a litre. Here in York area, there are around half a dozen places selling LPG, all below 55p, with a couple below 50p.

If their prices were high compared to other places that people would be driving to or from. For example - what are the prices in Leicester or Coventry? Places I imagine quite a lot of people who live in the Hinckley area might be driving to regularly for work or to do their shopping.

Hence if those two filling stations were asking 10p a litre more than people could get LPG for maybe near where they work, or where they shop, then there will indeed be little demand for it. The obvious thing is that if they dropped their price they might pull some of that trade away from the cities and then gradually increase it to a point where they're making a reasonable profit without driving people away. But there may be other factors involved such as difficulty with suppliers that mean they'd rather not sell it.


I'd hazard a guess that one of them is the Applegreen Dodwells station that used to be BP - last price on that on filllpg was 59.8 in November last year. Lowest its been since 2010 there but still not a particually competitive price, particually as you get wet there if its raining as the pump is outside of the canopy as well. no idea where the other station might have been but maybe the OP can help there/

Coventry flogas depot is one of the cheapest ones I've used - 39.9 but its only open in the daytime.

Potters poultry is just down the A5 and they are 49.9, When I've been there its rare to find your the only person there (you generally pass someone on the way in or out) So theres clearly demand, but only at the right price, and given that most people who would run on lpg tend to do the milage to justify doing it, they will usually be able to pick from a few stations.


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 Post subject: Re: No more gas...
PostPosted: Sat Apr 30, 2016 5:03 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jun 16, 2013 8:24 pm
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rich r wrote:
Out of interest what price were those two places near Hinckley charging for LPG? You tend to find the areas with lots of LPG pumps are also the areas where the price is lowest. So for example at the moment, the Birmingham area has loads selling below 50p a litre. Here in York area, there are around half a dozen places selling LPG, all below 55p, with a couple below 50p.

If their prices were high compared to other places that people would be driving to or from. For example - what are the prices in Leicester or Coventry? Places I imagine quite a lot of people who live in the Hinckley area might be driving to regularly for work or to do their shopping.

Hence if those two filling stations were asking 10p a litre more than people could get LPG for maybe near where they work, or where they shop, then there will indeed be little demand for it. The obvious thing is that if they dropped their price they might pull some of that trade away from the cities and then gradually increase it to a point where they're making a reasonable profit without driving people away. But there may be other factors involved such as difficulty with suppliers that mean they'd rather not sell it.


We actually only had one provider in Hinckley, and that was a BP garage on the A5. BP sold the garage and after 6 months the new owner ceased selling LPG. I asked why and was told they didn't sell enough of it to make it worth while, however they were expensive, always around 10 pence a litre dearer then other providers. Whetstone (just south of Leicester) had a garage selling it who ceased LPG sales due to a fall in demand. As I work in Rugby I usually use Potters Farm on the A5 as I have to pass it on the way to work. They sell for 49 pence per litre. Flogas in Coventry is 40 p/l and Flowgas in Leicester is 41 p/l


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 Post subject: Re: No more gas...
PostPosted: Sat Apr 30, 2016 5:10 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jun 16, 2013 8:24 pm
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LPGC wrote:
Motorvating wrote:
I live in the Hinckley area and have seen two providers cease LPG due to costs. Both state the demand for LPG has decreased so its no longer stocking it. I suppose with the cost of petrol and diesel at a historic low the demand for conversions must have declined.
It could equally be that demand for those two providers seemed to decline due to another provider in the area undercutting their prices!(?).

Fuel prices these days: https://www.petrolprices.com
Average price of both petrol and diesel are more than double the average price of LPG, this has been the case most of the time I've been involved in converting vehicles (over 10 ten years), though in some of those years LPG has been slightly above half the price of petrol. Now look at the pricing trends over those years, the following web page only shows petrol prices but, as just said, LPG has been around half the price of petrol most of these years and half price can be used as a rule of thumb. https://www.petrolprices.com/the-price-of-fuel.html

The last link shows fuel prices are now again around what they were at the back end of 2007 and start of 2008. Inflation and in theory pay rises (I know) will mean that in real terms fuel prices are now felt to be closer to what they were in mid 2007. In 2007/2008 LPG parts prices were more expensive than they are today, so the cost for a customer to convert back then was also more expensive. This implies that an LPG conversion today is more viable for customers than back then! Any perception that an LPG conversion isn't worth it these days 'because fuel is cheap anyway now' may only be due to people having become so used to paying the sky high prices they were paying in, say, 2012. 'Historic low prices' is only true of recent times, if we went back in time further (maybe further than 2007) the percentage of wages people paid to fuel their vehicles will have been lower on average than today. When I was 19 I had a relatively low paid job but nipping down Cornwall for the weekend in my 2L petrol Cortina at 100mph averaging 25mpg over the 800 mile round trip (32 gallons of petrol...) didn't eat up the biggest part of that week's wages. For somebody in a similar position today, even if they run a tiny little diesel hatchback and get 50mpg (so use 16 gallons of diesel), that would cost £60 in fuel, the same journey in the Cortina today would cost £120 in fuel. Fuel prices have gone up but cars have become more economical, if you want low fuel prices you need to run LPG.

These days I don't convert quite the same number of vehicles per year to LPG that I did back in 2007 but I do far more repairs on LPG conversions fitted elsewhere than I did back in 2007. There are many more installers converting vehicles to LPG than there were in 2007 and not all of them seem to do a good job (those repairs I do often involve sorting out newly fitted systems where the vehicle owner has got fed up of taking the vehicle back to the guy who fitted it for yet another unsuccessful attempt to sort out a problem, or having been eventually fobbed off by that installer).

If I do only half the number of conversions that I did back in 2007, and I assume other installers are doing a similar number of conversions to me (which seems to be the case) and there are more than twice the number of installers (which seems to be the case), then the total number of vehicles converted to LPG these days will be higher than in 2007, so demand for conversions would therefore have gone up. As implied above, the payback time for an LPG conversion will now be as short as ever (and not as long as in 2007), so we could expect LPG conversions to be more popular now than in 2007. If I am wrong and fewer LPG conversions are done these days than in 2007, this might be explained by people not being in a position to be able to spend money now to save money in the long run (even if that long run is a shorter run than in previous times) or might be explained by people's concerns of poor results (which might be due those new installers).

Engines have become more complicated and LPG systems have become more advanced but the general standard of install seems to have gone down. I look at it like this... Case of X vehicle which could be converted at a push with a set of components costing £500 but for better results should be fitted with components costing £600. I might take 3 days converting that vehicle using the £600 components, fully understanding what I'm doing and making sure everything is fitted in a technically correct way and done neatly, I might charge £1000 for this job and the customer is happy. Another installer might use the £500 components, not be as technically savvy or as experienced, might take a day to do the job, might not do as technically correct a job of installation, might not be as neat, and they might charge £800. A repair I do might involve sorting out the £800 conversion at some point after the owner has warned all his friends against an LPG conversion, and might involve me changing some component(s) on that install so the customer ends up paying more in total than then £1000 I would have charged if they'd only come to me in the first place. Even if that person had no problems with their £800 conversion so never visited me, they or their friends might be put off an LPG conversion by the standard of workmanship they see on the £800 conversion.

Simon


My installer Envirogas (no longer trading) fitted my prins system for a grand and had the car a week for a very good fit. Because he went out of business I used another installer in Coventry but had problems after, so took it to LPG-Cars in Coventry who sorted it, he reckons the pressure settings for the prins system was to low??? The guy at LPG-Cars said the same as you i.e. most his work is in servicing LPG now rather then installs.


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 Post subject: Re: No more gas...
PostPosted: Sun May 01, 2016 11:33 am 
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Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 5:01 pm
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Location: Yorkshire
Common thing when Prins systems age, reducer pressure goes out of range on the low side, adjustment with an allen key while reading pressure in software then an easy fix.

Simon

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