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 Post subject: LPG Filters
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2012 5:17 am 
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Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2012 7:28 am
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Location: Blackburn, Lancashire
I am new to LPG, my car is a Range Rover P38, 2000 model with the 4.6L V8 engine.

It runs a little rough on LPG and people in the Range Rover forum that I use say change the filters before you do anything else.

The sounds like a good idea as I don't know when they were last done and they aren't clean, at least not on the outside!

The system is a a Zavoli Multi Point one, and the filters appear to be made by Matrix, I think they are an XF-103

When I try to Google for them to order some, I can't really find anything.

Do the filters have to be the same make or is it just a case of something of the same diameter or flow rate.

Where is a good place to buy filters?

I have a ordered a system for my computer that should let me diagnose any faults etc.. so once the filters are done, I'll be looking at whether the trims need resetting. I don't know what the trims are yet, but I am a competent mechanical and electronic engineer so not afraid of tackling this with care.

Any tips or advice gratefully received.

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Regards

Paul

Range Rover P38, 2000 Model 4.6 V8 (Zavoli Multi Point LPG)

Jaguar XJR - 4.2 V8 Supercharged, 2005 Model (LPG - really should get it done!)


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 Post subject: Re: LPG Filters
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2012 9:10 am 
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Are you talking about the filter with an outlet to each injector ? If so tinley tech or autogas-lpg should both carry them. They arnet uncommon. Tinley tech will have them with you next day. Autogas lpg may not.

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 Post subject: Re: LPG Filters
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2012 11:47 am 
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No, the XF-103 is a cylindrical axial one-in one-out vapour filter can. Most spare suppliers carry the cheaper equivalents like
http://www.tinleytech.co.uk/acatalog/Fi ... ments.html
you need to get the correct size hose stubs, which will be 10mm for Zavoli

You'll be wanting a liquid filter too, probably the Valtek type

Clagged filters do not cause rough running at idle, so don't expect miracles. If you describe the fault more, there may be different advice. Poor sparkplugs or leads will show up more on LPG than petrol and are the commonest cause of roughness.

Do not expect a laptop connection to report "clagged filters" or "worn out injector no.5", it does not work like that.

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 Post subject: Re: LPG Filters
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2012 4:41 pm 
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Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2012 7:28 am
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Location: Blackburn, Lancashire
Ok, fault in more detail then.

History first.

Bought the car three months ago, it turned out to have a cracked block not long after purchase.

I replaced the short engine with one from Turner Engineering, this included the oil pump, camshaft, hydraulic lifters etc.
Also had the heads skimmed, valve guides etc...
New water pump, radiator and hoses.
New exhaust including CATs
New coil packs and HT leads.

On order I have MAF and Lambda Sensors which should be here tomorrow for fitting.

I am intending to keep this vehicle so don't mind paying out to get all the potential faults repaired before they fail too.

I start the car on petrol and when it is warm it flicks over to LPG, the car drives but the engine misses, this is confirmed by my Hawkeye diagnostic tool. The effect being less power than it should have, I do understand that there will be slightly less on LPG but not to the extent that it does.

If I flick back to petrol, it runs really rough and loses nearly all power, there are lots of misfires recorded by the Hawkeye tool.

If I disconnect the battery for 30 mins or so, the engine will fire up just fine on petrol and run OK until LPG is flicked over.

Driving on petrol or LPG has a further issue, if I put my foot down to overtake a vehicle, the revs climb up to about 3000 and then all of a sudden shoot up to 4000 but there is no power there, the vehicle then slows down until I take my foot off the accelerator and let it return to normal revs.

Any ideas?

_________________
Regards

Paul

Range Rover P38, 2000 Model 4.6 V8 (Zavoli Multi Point LPG)

Jaguar XJR - 4.2 V8 Supercharged, 2005 Model (LPG - really should get it done!)


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 Post subject: Re: LPG Filters
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2012 4:46 pm 
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Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2012 7:28 am
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Location: Blackburn, Lancashire
I can see the vapour filters and they are easy to change.

Where is the liquid filter likely to be, is it likely to be a paper element type replacement, what does it look like.

Thanks

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Paul

Range Rover P38, 2000 Model 4.6 V8 (Zavoli Multi Point LPG)

Jaguar XJR - 4.2 V8 Supercharged, 2005 Model (LPG - really should get it done!)


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 Post subject: Re: LPG Filters
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2012 6:14 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jun 29, 2007 2:28 pm
Posts: 1124
Location: Northants.
The xf-103 filter is like rocking horse muck now, but there are many disposable alternatives as Rossko says. A fiver will get you one on ebay.
If you go on the Tinley Tech shop site or ebay and type in solenoid you will see a combined 12v solenoid/filter unitr which will be mounted on or near your vapouriser/reducer. Probably a Valtek make with a M8 nut holding the cover which hides a paper filter.
OMVL also use this Valtek unit sometimes and gasit.com or co.uk, can't remember, stock the filter and seals which is handy as the outer washer/rubber did'nt seal on mine. If you do just buy a filter only it does seem that the inner seal's re-use well. The outer washer/seal can be replaced with a M8 copper washer which Halfords sell in a kit of assorted copper washers.


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 Post subject: Re: LPG Filters
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2012 6:42 pm 
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merlinpjl wrote:
I start the car on petrol and when it is warm it flicks over to LPG, the car drives but the engine misses, this is confirmed by my Hawkeye diagnostic tool. The effect being less power than it should have, I do understand that there will be slightly less on LPG but not to the extent that it does.
That's a myth. On an old single point mixer system there will be a slight loss in power on both petrol and LPG due to the restriction placed in the air intake by the mixer. This is only noticeable at over 3/4 throttle but having owned 3 cars (and still do own two of them) on mixers, even then you would need to take the mixer out and compare for any difference to be felt. On a multipoint system like yours the only difference you should notice between running on petrol and running on gas is that it should be smoother and quieter when on gas.
merlinpjl wrote:
If I flick back to petrol, it runs really rough and loses nearly all power, there are lots of misfires recorded by the Hawkeye tool.

If I disconnect the battery for 30 mins or so, the engine will fire up just fine on petrol and run OK until LPG is flicked over.
The LPG system is miles out of calibration. The mixture is completely out when on gas that the petrol ECU is adjusting the injector pulse durations to try and correct it. Then when you go back to petrol it is way out on that too. Disconnecting he battery will reset the long and short term fuel trims stored in the petrol ECU so it will be fine. The Hawkeye should be able to show you the fuel trims. Check them when on petrol and then switch over to gas. They should remain the same but I suspect they won't.
merlinpjl wrote:
Driving on petrol or LPG has a further issue, if I put my foot down to overtake a vehicle, the revs climb up to about 3000 and then all of a sudden shoot up to 4000 but there is no power there, the vehicle then slows down until I take my foot off the accelerator and let it return to normal revs.
Any ideas?
If it does it on both fuels, that sounds more like a gearbox issue. I can put my P38 into sport mode, floor the throttle and it pulls like a train right up to the red line (although I do suspect that when it belonged to Greater Manchester Police they played with the ECU mapping when in sport mode as I can't really understand how you can make something that weighs nearly 2.5 tonnes accelerate the way it does!).

_________________
'96 Saab 900XS, AEB Leo, sold
'93 Range Rover 4.2 LSE, Lovato LovEco, sold
'98 Ex-Police Range Rover 4.0, Singlepoint AEB Leo, my daily motor
'97 Range Rover 4.0SE, eGas multipoint, a project.....

Proud to be a member of the YCHJCYA2PDTHFH club.


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 Post subject: Re: LPG Filters
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2012 8:53 pm 
Intermediate Member

Joined: Wed Apr 06, 2011 9:32 am
Posts: 917
Location: Ellesmere Port
merlinpjl wrote:
Driving on petrol or LPG has a further issue, if I put my foot down to overtake a vehicle, the revs climb up to about 3000 and then all of a sudden shoot up to 4000 but there is no power there, the vehicle then slows down until I take my foot off the accelerator and let it return to normal revs.

Any ideas?

Either an oil leak from gearbox input shaft or worn clutch plate.


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 Post subject: Re: LPG Filters
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2012 9:22 pm 
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It's a V8 P38 Simon. Finding one with a manual gearbox box is rarer than finding a set of hens false teeth in a pile of rocking horse droppings. Could be the autobox is low on fluid, but never come across that fault before (come across most P38 faults, but not that one....).

_________________
'96 Saab 900XS, AEB Leo, sold
'93 Range Rover 4.2 LSE, Lovato LovEco, sold
'98 Ex-Police Range Rover 4.0, Singlepoint AEB Leo, my daily motor
'97 Range Rover 4.0SE, eGas multipoint, a project.....

Proud to be a member of the YCHJCYA2PDTHFH club.


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 Post subject: Re: LPG Filters
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2012 9:36 pm 
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Joined: Wed May 23, 2007 5:51 pm
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Modern autoboxes can get confused by sick engines, I guess the expected torque isn't there at given rpm+throttle so it chooses inappropriate gears.

I wouldn't rule out a stuffed vaporiser or injector tiddling gas into the manifold after switch to petrol, although incorrect setup is more likely. Ever experience poor starting? Is there any missing on petrol before trying LPG? Is the MAF being changed just in case, or any real suspicions?

You ain't gonna fix this one with a LPG filter change, consider taking it to an installer. A new air filter might address the high rpm lack of power though! Or MAF of course.

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 Post subject: Re: LPG Filters
PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 6:57 am 
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Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2012 7:28 am
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Location: Blackburn, Lancashire
Happy to go to an installer, in fact tried one the other day as I drove past one.

They said I should book it in as they didn't have time there and then which is fair enough, however, the guy said that I should start by replacing all 8 injectors!

The car was converted 70,000 miles ago, but I can't see why all 8 would require replacing just like that, I can see one or two failing perhaps, but not all 8!

This made me suspicious of the garage.

I am happy to spend money on the vehicle, but I'm not being taken for a ride.

What I need is a recommended LPG installer / garage in my area, I live near Blackburn in Lancashire.

Can anyone recommend a good place to go?

_________________
Regards

Paul

Range Rover P38, 2000 Model 4.6 V8 (Zavoli Multi Point LPG)

Jaguar XJR - 4.2 V8 Supercharged, 2005 Model (LPG - really should get it done!)


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 Post subject: Re: LPG Filters
PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 7:07 am 
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Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2012 7:28 am
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Location: Blackburn, Lancashire
On the subject of the MAF change, I see many posts on the Range Rover forum that talk about faults caused by the MAF and some of the symptoms do point to a potential dodgy MAF.

If it isn't the MAF that is at fault, I have a feeling that it will let me down just when I don't need it to so it's being replaced anyway.

I am going through the car doing all the usual faults regardless of cost as I want this to be a reliable motor, it's not my main car, but I want to use it to tow our caravan on holidays. It is quite rural and high where I live so we do get snow in the winter, again, it needs to be reliable.

I'll do the autobox oil and filter, that was on my list and I have everything ready to do that, you may well be right on that with required torque and wrong gear, but there is still a definite fault withe the fuelling somewhere.

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Regards

Paul

Range Rover P38, 2000 Model 4.6 V8 (Zavoli Multi Point LPG)

Jaguar XJR - 4.2 V8 Supercharged, 2005 Model (LPG - really should get it done!)


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 Post subject: Re: LPG Filters
PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 10:21 am 
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The MAFs do fail silently on Bosch cars (with bananas manifold) with nasty non-obvious symptoms. Other types are more reliable.

I would agree with the LPG installers first guess, although it needs verifying ... your injectors are likely clapped out at 80,000 miles. It's a wearing out thing, so it would be all of them. If they listened to it running, I'd put even more faith in their opinion; they usually clatter when knacked (injectors not installers - we moan). Depending on type, possibly refurbishable (injectors not ... etc.).

Even if just one were actually broke, the same advice as with petrol injectors applies - do not replace singletons, change as a set for matched performance.

It's a bit odd you would spend large money on MAF guess from an internet forum but poo-pooh a professionals opinion about injectors ;)

Go with the gearbox service, but yup I wouldn't further investigate potential box problems until the engine is 100%

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 Post subject: Re: LPG Filters
PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 1:44 pm 
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Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2012 7:28 am
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Location: Blackburn, Lancashire
What's the ball park figure for a set of injectors?

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Regards

Paul

Range Rover P38, 2000 Model 4.6 V8 (Zavoli Multi Point LPG)

Jaguar XJR - 4.2 V8 Supercharged, 2005 Model (LPG - really should get it done!)


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 Post subject: Re: LPG Filters
PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 3:58 pm 
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Depends wot you got, Zavoli Pans (in common with many other makers seem to have a variable lifespan)
http://www.autogasetneo.be/en/webshop/a ... njector/88
although you'd probably get a better price from Jaymic (Zavoli-UK)
or Matrix XJ (which are generally long-lived)
http://lpg-parts.co.uk/injectors.html

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 Post subject: Re: LPG Filters
PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 9:46 pm 
New member

Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2012 7:28 am
Posts: 7
Location: Blackburn, Lancashire
New MAF arrived today along with LPG software and cables.

Installed new MAF and connected up the LPG diagnostic cable, ran the Zavoli software, saved current settings and then did an Auto Calibration.

Wow! The engine feels like it has just had a supercharger fitted, it runs smoothly, has considerably more power and is fine on both petrol and LPG.

Lambda sensors and LPG filters arrive tomorrow so once fitted I will runs the Auto Calibrate again to ensure I have the best set up.

The software says that I have Matrix injectors but doesn't give a model number, I'll have to try and find them and get a number off them so that I can replace them.

Looking good now, thanks for advice, I'll post the results tomorrow night when done.

_________________
Regards

Paul

Range Rover P38, 2000 Model 4.6 V8 (Zavoli Multi Point LPG)

Jaguar XJR - 4.2 V8 Supercharged, 2005 Model (LPG - really should get it done!)


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 Post subject: Re: LPG Filters
PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 10:33 pm 
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merlinpjl wrote:
The software says that I have Matrix injectors but doesn't give a model number, I'll have to try and find them and get a number off them so that I can replace them.
Although it is likely that they should be well worn after 70,000 miles who's to say that they haven't been reconditioned recently (or even replaced)? If it is running as well as you say and they are not overly clattery (which you would most definitely have noticed), then leave them as they are. If it ain't broke, don't fix it!

_________________
'96 Saab 900XS, AEB Leo, sold
'93 Range Rover 4.2 LSE, Lovato LovEco, sold
'98 Ex-Police Range Rover 4.0, Singlepoint AEB Leo, my daily motor
'97 Range Rover 4.0SE, eGas multipoint, a project.....

Proud to be a member of the YCHJCYA2PDTHFH club.


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 Post subject: Re: LPG Filters
PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 11:44 pm 
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If the MAF fixed it, no reason to recalibrate .... how did it go with new MAF before recal?

Matrix don't clatter at end-of-life, but they would give you a rougher idle than petrol. As said before, they do last better than most. They look like black slabs rather than recognisably a 'multipack of solenoids'.

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