BMW E46 330i BRC LPG overhaul questions

[oz striker]

So I'm wanting to tidy up my engine bay LPG install slightly as the currerntly the LPG hoses overly the intake and throttle body area, so accessing these components is a bit of a pain. I'm hoping to reroute some of the LPG hoses (coolant and gas). Additionally the oil separator will be geting removed so i wont need the oil vapour return pipework marked in purple and it will be getting removed. Just got a few Q's, pics labelled to help me! and anyone else less experienced in LPG.



(1) Once i have removed the purple piece, there will be more room for the injector rail. Currently the gas enters the intake as close as it can to the petrol injectors. I presume it would be beneficial to shorten the 6 hoses coming off the injector rail, marked yellow in the above picture?

(2) To make the install a little more stealthy and less in the way of the air intake, throttle body etc, i may have to lengthen some of the hoses outlined in green. Is it ok to do this? No major problems with lengthening gas lines from the reducer (marked R) and the injectors?


(3) The BRC reducer has 1 coolant inlet, 1 coolant outlet. And 3 additional ports, the top one where the copper pipe connects is 'LPG In'. In the pics below, the bottom port circled orange is LPG out i presume. And what is the port circled yellow, is it an electrical connection? But then it wouldn't have the metal clip. I did manage to get my hands on a comprehensive install manual a while back, but lost it






(4) In the picture below, the green arrow points to an electrical connection. Is the blue arrow pointing to a sensor measuring MAP? The yellow arrow points to a hose/wire which returns to the reducer, is this an electrical wire plugging into the yellow circled port in the above picture?




(5) Lastly with the injector rail now out, I presume its ok to clean out the rail and the individual injector tips with simple carb cleaner? I heard of one fella who cleaned them out with WD40 without any ill effect??

[LPGC]

If tidying up the engine bay and getting shorter pipe runs between injectors and manifold nozzles are the main concern, could suggest a different approach...

Buy some singular injectors which will fit neatly between runners on inlet manifold and mean there's only an inch of pipe between manifold nozzles and injectors, the original manifold cover will now fit neatly in place... buy a 1 x 6 or 2 x 3 outlet gas manifold(s) for those injectors, manifolds and plumbing can be made out of sight, no need to bother cleaning out injectors because you'd be fitting new. Would also need to swap injector plugs to suit singular injectors (Hana type connectors for Hana or 2 pin Supaseal connectors for MJ), remove the gas pressure sensor from BRC injector rail and re-install it in the gas feed to injectors (part is available for that). System would need to be re-calibrated for new injectiors, probably no bad thing...

You can lengthen those hoses in green, the length of those isn't nearly as critical as hoses between injector outlets and manifold fittings, which are unsurprisingly a bit long on your install.

All your presumptions are correct. The vacuum connection from manifold Y's to reducer vacuum port (chrome) and pressure sensor.

As broad as it is long really, but doubtful the manifold cover will go back in place with those BRC injectors even if you remove the vapour vent?

Your reducer looks to be high in the engine bay, could probably be tooked out the way a lot lower down from where it is.

Simon

[oz striker]

If tidying up the engine bay and getting shorter pipe runs between injectors and manifold nozzles are the main concern, could suggest a different approach...

Buy some singular injectors which will fit neatly between runners on inlet manifold and mean there's only an inch of pipe between manifold nozzles and injectors, the original manifold cover will now fit neatly in place... buy a 1 x 6 or 2 x 3 outlet gas manifold(s) for those injectors, manifolds and plumbing can be made out of sight, no need to bother cleaning out injectors because you'd be fitting new. Would also need to swap injector plugs to suit singular injectors (Hana type connectors for Hana or 2 pin Supaseal connectors for MJ), remove the gas pressure sensor from BRC injector rail and re-install it in the gas feed to injectors (part is available for that). System would need to be re-calibrated for new injectiors, probably no bad thing...

That sounds interesting, are these the type of injectors you mean?
http://www.lpgshop.co.uk/hana-h2001-gol ... stributor/

As broad as it is long really, but doubtful the manifold cover will go back in place with those BRC injectors even if you remove the vapour vent?

The purple vapour vent piece is now removed. i was actually thinking of installing a valve saver system and plumbing it into those 6 inlets which each have a port diameter of ~5mm. BMWs < 2006 aren't known to suffer valve seat wear, but on the E46 forums some people suggest the oil vapour return can help lubricate valve stems (some people say all they do is gum things ups!).... and valve savers aren't too expensive.

Your reducer looks to be high in the engine bay, could probably be tooked out the way a lot lower down from where it is.

Yes, i've been thinking that also. I've had a look, and dont think i could get it much lower. Does the reducer have to be up against the bulkhead? I vaguely recall some LPG installation recommendation/regulation. If i can't get it much lower, I think i'll rotate it 90 degrees, and bring in the coolant pipes from underneath rather than coming through top side as they are now.

[LPGC]

Injectors you linked to are singular Hana, yes.

Isn't the engine pretty much the same lump as previous spec BMW 6, which doesn't have that purple vent manifold? None of the previous version engine need a valve lube either.

Reducer doesn't have to be up against the bulkhead. The recommendation you read may have been not to fit directly to bulkhead, as reducer diagphram can vibrate and if mounted to bulkhead noise can be transmitted to cabin.

Simon

[oz striker]

Cool thanks Simon, I'll leave the lube system.

On to my next questions:

Does the looping copper pipe going into the reducer in the pic below have to be a solid pipe? Is there a flexible alternative? And does it have to be under a certain length? Asking as I'd like to move the reducer further forward and lower.










I might wait on switching all 6 injectors when one of my current one fails, but for now i was perhaps thinking of using two triple injector rails (first pic below), as install could be neater. However I just wanted to check if it would be ok to connect up the 2 injector rails like in the second pic....... with a rubber hose connecting the two of them??? and gas supply coming in from one end of one rail....

[LPGC]

You can use flexible 'Faro' (brand name) type pipe, would also need end fittings for said pipe (end fittings emulate copper pipe, can be used for same applications as copper pipe but are harder like brass or steel). You can buy various end fittings, e.g straight / 90degree, looks like you'd be better off with 90deg if filter solenoid remains in same position.

Pipe length between filter solenoid and reducer isn't critical on sequential systems but the longer it is, the lest point there is in having the solenoid! (There's a solenoid on tank, this solenoid cuts off gas flow at front, if you moved this solenoid all the way back to the tank there'd be little point in it).. And the longer it is the more gas will escape when you come to change filters if you don't isolate the tank and then run the LPG until all the gas in the line is used first.

You can run rails in series as in the pic, whether or not I'd do so would depend on the vehicle... On a really powerful vehicle, this would see the rail nearest the feed pipe getting more pressure than the further rail at high engine loads - Depends on pipe bore, rail bore and rate of gas used. Wouldn't expect you to see more than a couple% difference in rail pressure at full load with your injectors on this engine at full load, and can make neater.

Funny you should post a pic of a BMW straight6 with Valteks fitted like that - Last night I sorted an X5 3L with the same config, this one had the older green coil Valtek30's, I found one of the injectors was broken not functioning at all, others ticking away, so replaced all 6 with red coil V30's then did a full remap (it would have needed a bloomin remap anyway even if there were no issues with injectors judging by the state of the King ECU map when it arrived). Also, it seems the original Leeds based done in a day installer had disconnected the MIL light as they often do... I reckon with their original mapping there would have been codes present from day one of the conversion - the MIL shouldn't come on now I've mapped it!

Simon

[oz striker]

Funny you should post a pic of a BMW straight6 with Valteks fitted like that - Last night I sorted an X5 3L with the same config, this one had the older green coil Valtek30's, I found one of the injectors was broken not functioning at all, others ticking away, so replaced all 6 with red coil V30's then did a full remap (it would have needed a bloomin remap anyway even if there were no issues with injectors judging by the state of the King ECU map when it arrived). Also, it seems the original Leeds based done in a day installer had disconnected the MIL light as they often do... I reckon with their original mapping there would have been codes present from day one of the conversion - the MIL shouldn't come on now I've mapped it!

That LPG installer sounds well dodgy, you'd think that the owner may notice the MIL was disconnected might have stopped them from doing such shit!

You can use flexible 'Faro' (brand name) type pipe, would also need end fittings for said pipe (end fittings emulate copper pipe, can be used for same applications as copper pipe but are harder like brass or steel). You can buy various end fittings, e.g straight / 90degree, looks like you'd be better off with 90deg if filter solenoid remains in same position.

That's perfect thanks! It wont be very long, just enough to move the reducer about 30-40cm. And a 90 degree fitting will certainly make things easier. So i had a look.... but there are so many faro connectors I got all confused! My copper pipe is 8mm, and the threads of the coupler have an external diameter of 12mm, gonna email an LPG supplier and see which type i need.







And i managed to snap the MAP hose coupler that fits into the reducer! Measured it up and ordered a replacement brass one off the bay:

[rich r]

My wife's Honda CRV was done in a day in Leeds by the previous owner, and guess what? The MIL is disconnected. I've yet to find out where they cut the wire though, as the looms seem intact at both the ECU and instrument panel end, and the LED comes on if I ground the appropriate terminal on the panel.

[Gilbertd]

If it was me, I'd phone them up and demand to know where they've buggered up the car. You'll be stuffed if they decide to add a check on the MIL to the MoT test like they have with ABS warning lamps.

[Zaphod]

Check the revers side of the dash face plate, I have in the past found insulation tape found there to hide the three amigos on a discovery (ABS, traction and Hill decent lights), its possible the same has been done to your MIL. What was annoying about mine was it took longer top get the instrument panel out than to fix the issue causing the lights to come on! They had also diconected the temp guage to hide an overheating engine in my case!

[rich r]

I know that the MIL light comes on when I ground the pin on the connector to the panel, so there's nothing altered on the panel itself. The wires look continuous from the connector back into the loom at that end too. The ECU is buried on the bulkhead behind the glovebox on the CRV, and a right pain to get to. However the wires on the big connector plugs there all look good too. I suspect they've cut it somewhere in between, so next time I have the instrument panel out for some reason (blown backlight bulb maybe) I'll run a wire directly across to the ECU. Sadly I have no recourse as it was the previous owner who had the conversion done some time ago.

[Gilbertd]

Sadly I have no recourse as it was the previous owner who had the conversion done some time ago.

No recourse maybe but there's still nothing to stop you ringing them up and saying that you've just bought a car they converted, have discovered the MIL has been disconnected and you would like to know where the bodging bastards disconnected it........

[LPGC]

Like I said, 'Mil light disconnected as they often do'... I've seen lots of cars done in a day in Leeds (and several other done in a day installers) with Mil disconnected. I believe there have been at least 4 Leeds LPG's over the years though, the earliest wasn't dodgy but at least some of the later ones are / have been.

Can buy Faro fittings that will screw straight into M10/M12 threads but not in 90degree fitting. Other brands of plastic LPG pipe are available (sounding like BBC now!), main part of fittings are usually interchangeable but you need to make sure the cap and pipe grip are suited to the brand of pipe you use.

Simon

[oz striker]

Well as it happens the Reducer cant sit any lower as there just isnt enough room around the ABS/DSC unit for all the pipes to connect up. I'm leaving it where it is (for now) but have rerouted the coolant and gas outlet pipes so its a bit neater looking.

BUT on putting it back together I have a Question hopefully someone can answer. On the BRC Genus Max reducer, are the water inlet and outlet ports directional? (they are not marked as such, just "water"). As it would be neater if i could swap round the "warm coolant going in" and "cool coolant coming out" hoses.

I've had a look in the online manual and there's no mention of them being directional.

[LPGC]

Well as it happens the Reducer cant sit any lower as there just isnt enough room around the ABS/DSC unit for all the pipes to connect up

This is mostly for other's benefit mate - This is one reason some of us fit a wide range of equipment (including reducers).. A different design can sometimes make for a better fit, not only aesthetically but also in terms of function. Even where two reducers are the same shape and size, choice of piping arrangements can be very advantageous. I mostly make this argument regards injectors... The main point is - If an installer fits the same make system on everything they convert, they cannot do as good a job on certain (read a very wide range of) vehicles as installers that select components to suit the vehicle.. This usually applies much more to systems that use big injectors, Prins and BRC being prime examples. In an above post I mentioned you could have much shorter injector pipe lengths with smaller injectors.. Some customers are willing to pay more for 'premium' systems such as Prins and BRC without understanding that size and design of components in such systems can mean the final result could never be as technically correct as a different system installed with components in ideal locations.

BUT on putting it back together I have a Question hopefully someone can answer. On the BRC Genus Max reducer, are the water inlet and outlet ports directional? (they are not marked as such, just "water"). As it would be neater if i could swap round the "warm coolant going in" and "cool coolant coming out" hoses.

Reducer water connections are never truly directional, there are never any valves/thermostats etc in them... Having said that, some manufacturers physically small but high flowing (in theory) reducers have a pre-heat section for the gas inlet... On those I choose to have water flow around the main part of the reducer before the pre-heat section - Your reducer isn't such a design. If one connector is higher than the other it can be a good idea to have water flow in at the bottom and out of the top simply to help avoid air-locks.

BTW, BMW 6's can be particularly prone to air locks after losing coolant and the bleed screw that's often fitted on the plastic top header pipe is prone to splitting.. I'd rather disconnect a pipe than use BMW bleed screws...

Simon

[oz striker]

So finally almost finished repositioning my reducer over to the drivers side of the engine and a little lower. Just wanted to check which way round the "olives" are meant to be installed, the faro pipes and connectors, before they are tightened down, 1st pic or 2nd pic?:

[LPGC]

I only see one pic! But I get an 'image error' above the pic I can see.

The image I can see is incorrect and this would seem to be the second pic, so would seem the first pic that I can't see is correct.

Correct is where the olive tapers thinner towards the screw on pipe nut, tapers thicker towards the end fitting itself. The correct way will tighten the olive onto Faro pipe, due to the (also tapered) design inside the end fitting cap.

You have the M10 or M12 screw in type, so screw the fitting to the reducer first before attaching Faro pipe.

Simon

[oz striker]

Correct is where the olive tapers thinner towards the screw on pipe nut, tapers thicker towards the end fitting itself. The correct way will tighten the olive onto Faro pipe, due to the (also tapered) design inside the end fitting cap.

You have the M10 or M12 screw in type, so screw the fitting to the reducer first before attaching Faro pipe.

Simon

Perfect thanks! Also what are your thoughts on the Faro fast fitting connectors? Sure would be nice to disconnect/connect things quicker, esp as i experiment with positioning of components. But are they easy to connect/disconnect and are they robust....... and you know, do they have a satisfying quality "click"!!

[LPGC]

Never used Faro fast fitting connectors, I'm happy to continue using normal Faro connectors as they're extremely secure and I find them extremely quick (maybe 25 seconds when you get the knack) anyway! Never known one of these leak except where someone has used normal Faro fittings on different spec pipe such as the same internal diameter but thinner walled thinner outside diameter Emer pipe (which should be fitted using different olives and pipe nuts).

Hanson couplings are another way of setting up a quick disconnect system.

On straight Faro fittings, once a normal copper pipe olive has been tightened around the brass end that emulates straight copper pipe you won't be able to remove the olive easily (and therefore pipe nut too) as the brass bit is deformed by the olive slightly, much like with copper pipe... Meaning unless you have spare copper pipe nuts and olives you need to re-use the same Faro fitting.

But you have the screw in type Faro end fittings (no copper pipe olives used)... To remove from whatever they're screwed into, slackening the Faro pipe nut should allow the end fitting to rotate on the Faro pipe as you unscrew it, so won't kink the Faro pipe and rotation on the fitting doesn't damage the Faro pipe where it connects either. Usually better than trying to remove Faro pipe from an end fitting, as once Faro has been clamped tightly onto a fitting trying to pull it off can damage the end of the Faro pipe... Only way to rectify that situation is cutting the Faro pipe off near the end connector and starting again with a shorter bit of pipe. To remove the remaining bit of Faro stuck on the connector, pry open the Faro olive a little to remove it and then cut down the remaining Faro along the length of the fitting. Faro olives are generally re-usable.

Simon