Please help

[Chryslerjohn]

Hi, we bought our Chrysler Grand Voyager 3.3 v6 auto 2003 with a view to LPG convert it. We had this done over a week ago by a UKLPG approved installer local to us. We got it back on Monday and was initially very pleased but soon realised that it would shudder or cut out completely when it turned over from petrol to LPG. Took it back to the installer who reassured me it was working fine after connecting it to the diagnostics and that it just needed to settle down although he did change it to not only be prevented from changing over until it got to the correct temperature but also not until it hit 1500rpm so it would be going along when it changed over. However later that day it cut out when changing over to LPG as well as driving along the road and the engine management light came on so rang the installer to see if this was just part of bedding in and he asked us to bring it back so back to the installer it went who kept it in for a half day and said he took all the injectors off and started over with them. Got it back but still had the same problems and engine management light came up again. Plus we had now noticed that on acceleration from idle there was sometimes a slight shudder/hesitation and on braking we were sometimes getting a slight shudder now and then which caused the revs to surge and drop just as it went under 1000rpm and also would sometimes shudder and lose power in reverse. The installer had it back for 2 days this time and told me that he had calibrated it extensively and it was running fantastic but said that the engine management light may come on again as the LPG system runs slightly hotter and was causing the CAT to throw up the engine management light even though nothing was wrong. I felt by this point I was being fobbed off. He had changed it back from turning over at 1500rpm to just turning over when the temperature was sufficient for the system to do so, so I tried to remain hopeful however when picking our vehicle up the car was still shuddering as if going to cut out on turn over from petrol to LPG. Tthe installer said that the system just needed to settle in, I said fair enough so you are saying that it will stop doing that in the first 1,000 miles once it has bedded in and he said no he can't promise that and we are still getting all of the above problems. We have also noticed that when they removed the windscreen wipers and rear bumper in order to fit the system they failed to put them back correctly and have had to remove and fit them back correctly ourselves. The installer rang today to see how it is going and when my husband said we are still getting the problems he said he could either remove the system and refund our money or fit an entirely new system. Can anyone shed any light on this at all? Any recommendations as to what to do? When I say that it shudders it is almost cutting out.

[scottyf]

Sounds like its having a supply issue or the tuning is wrong.

A correctly tuned system won't throw up any Engine management lights.
It'll also run exactly how it would on petrol (Maybe a tiny bit down on power but not enough to ever notice).

Should get on the knowledgeable chaps on here to sort it.

However I would continue to pester the supplier to get it fixed as they are not doing what you paid them to do.

[Gilbertd]

Or get onto Mike Chapman at UKLPG as it was installed, badly, by one of their members. They should be able to arrange for it to be checked over by someone else. It may be something so obvious the original installer can't see it but a second pair of eyes would spot it straight away.

[Talkingcars]

It should be fine from the moment you picked it up, I would follow Gilbartd's advice.

[LPGC]

Sounds like its having a supply issue or the tuning is wrong.
A correctly tuned system won't throw up any Engine management lights.

Could be fitted poorly, e.g. if injector spuds aren't in a suitable position it may be impossible to otherwise sort problems. If he has set the system up with a combination of too large nozzles with too much pressure , this may need sorting before it will run properly. Agreed it should run properly turnkey following the conversion. Any talk of needing to bed in / run in is a nonsense excuse.

The installer rang today to see how it is going and when my husband said we are still getting the problems he said he could either remove the system and refund our money or fit an entirely new system. Can anyone shed any light on this at all?

Seems like the installer is at a loss to know what is wrong, reading not far between the lines probably not a very good installer. Yours is a simple vehicle to get running nicely on LPG on just about any system. I have owned 3 Grand Voyagers (just towed the caravan 1000 miles with the one I own now), converted all those to LPG, have further converted a large number of customer GV's and have sold many DIY kits for Grand Voyagers to people who rarely get the spanners out... None of these GVs have been problematic. Even if the system he fitted or your vehicle has a defective component, a good installer should know how to diagnose and sort it.

Or get onto Mike Chapman at UKLPG as it was installed, badly, by one of their members. They should be able to arrange for it to be checked over by someone else. It may be something so obvious the original installer can't see it but a second pair of eyes would spot it straight away.

'Badly' in UKLPG terms, though, usually means unsafely. We don't know it if is fitted unsafely and I wasn't aware UKLPG kept tabs on how well converted vehicles actually drive on LPG.. Seems to me the problem is the installer doesn't know what he is doing yet he he is one of their members. The installer offering to fit a different system begs the question - why did he fit this system? There should never be need to change the full system - the main engine bay components comprise the ECU and loom, reducer and injectors.. all of which can be individually swapped out... unless the installer is implying he may have got all 3 wrong, and then we're back to the installer not knowing what he is doing again. If the installer offers to remove the system and fit Prins, BRC (or something else costing more)... don't fall for it!

I'm not sure if the installer has intentionally fobbed you off in the past or if he really thought problems would 'sort themselves out in time' but he is at least now following up and trying to get it resolved. If UKLPG are taking interest in how vehicles drive then they might threaten to revoke his membership unless he resolves the problem - an extreme case might involve them telling the installer to remove the system and give you your money back but the installer has already offered to do that. I'm not sure how UKLPG would select an installer for you to take it to - say you had your car converted by one of their members in the next town and it had this problem they might send you to this installer as the 'fresh pair of eyes'... I wouldn't fancy the odds of this installer sorting the problem any more as the 2nd set of eyes than as the 1st pair of eyes. The next installer who looks should sort the problem though, not because they are a fresh set of eyes but because they are better at the job.

Simon

[Chryslerjohn]

I'm in a rock and a hard place as the car is back in tomorrow as the lpg tec is coming out and a king 1's being fitterd.
Just hope it's for the best as I'm at my wits end with it big time

[LPGC]

What system is already fitted?

Has the installer mentioned why he thinks changing the ECU to a different type (if that is what he intends) will improve matters (I could understand him changing a like for like ECU if he had determined the current ECU was broken)? Does he intend to just change the ECU and wiring loom, or to change the injectors and reducer too?

King is not a system I generally advise these days for a 6 cylinder engine, but as said before.. your Chrysler is simple to get right and just about any ECU should give good results. Chances are that I would probably prefer the existing ECU over King for your vehicle.. If he only changes the ECU and loom (not injectors or reducer), and that sorts it, then it has probably got more to do with second time lucky with his new mapping and config (necessary when fitting the new ECU) than any shortfall of the existing ECU. If he has ID'd a problem with the existing ECU then why not just swap in a replacement ECU of the same type (simple as unplugging one and plugging in another, without rewiring etc being necessary)...

I hope this sorts it for you though.

Simon,

[Chryslerjohn]

Simon I wish I cone 2 u now.
It's got lpg tec on it that's not running right so now he's fitting a new king system but from what u just said I'm going 2 have more problems now with the king.
thanks for your help by the way

[LPGC]

John,

Him fitting the King might sort it out!

LPGTech can be setup in either of 2 ways. The default way is the 'tech' setup, which tries to be clever in doing lots of self tuning but often gets it very wrong. This way / method seems to be mostly aimed at amateurs and 'done in a day' installers, it doesn't really show on screen some of the most important info (multiplier) that a pro installer should be concerned about. I never use the 'tech' setup, instead I switch the system to 'standard' setup, which allows more manual control over the calibration.

The installer may get better results with the King, not so much because of a problem with the LPGTech (though I still don't like LPGTech much) but more because the installer doesn't understand how to set the LPGTech system up - The installer could save himself the bother of swapping ECUs and associated re-wiring if only he knew what he was doing a bit better! King is much more straightforward to set up, and is more forgiving if the combination of injectors and pressure aren't correct - 2 reasons there why I expect him to get better results with the King. But even if apparently much better results are seen with the King, I would still be left wondering if his setup of the King system is less than expert.

For most 8 cylinder vehicles I would recommend King over LPGTech almost every time, but I am not alone in noticing issues with King when fitted on some 6 cylinder vehicles (King don't make a 6 cyl ECU, they make 4 and 8 cyl ECUs but 8 cyl versions can be used on 6 cyl engines - I am not confident King works as well on 6 cylinder engines as on 8's, not because it is an 8 cyl ECU working on a 6 cyl engine, as this doesn't necessarily effect other makes of ECU's, so I have wondered if there is some sort of firmware issue). Not to worry in your case, though, as I haven't seen any issues with King (which is the same AEB ECU as also known by many other brand names such as OMVL etc) on GV's. My own GV is the older engine design (metal manifold) but has more or less the same ECU as the King he'll be fitting, no problems, and I haven't seen any problems with AEB on newer GV V6's with the plastic manifold either.

Simon

[Chryslerjohn]

I really hope it does sort it out Simon. Thank you for your input, it is very useful and interesting for me.

I don't think he has a clue what is wrong with it to be honest. I have a feeling this is the first time he has used an LPGTech system, but that he has used King before as I have seen a couple of the vehicles that have been there when I have been down and they have had AEB King ECU's on them, so I am hoping that this will mean he has better luck this time. He is changing everything in the front apparently so all wiring looms, injectors etc.

He has told me it will be done in a day and a half. The first time round he said when we dropped it off on the Wednesday that it would be ready on Friday but this changed to Saturday and the Monday, and I suspect this is because he realised there was something not right and was trying to sort it out but eventually just hoped we would think it is normal, especially when on the 2nd time of taking it back to him he asked me if I had any experience of driving gas converted cars before, but I trumped him on that one because I have drove other gas cars, actually a Chrysler Grand Voyager with a Zenit Pro on it and none of the problems I have experienced with this.

Well he has got my car now and told me we will go out in it together when I have finished work tomorrow afternoon. Fingers crossed for me. Any suggestions as to anything I should be asking or checking when I pick it up? Do you think I should get it checked over elsewhere even if it does work well this time? The fact that he has not put my bumper on windscreen wipers back on properly as well as snapping the windscreen washer nozzle has made me wonder what he has done on the rest of the car that I am unable to see.

Thanks for your help
John

[LPGC]

You're welcome, John.

Too late now but it might have been better all round (including for this installer) if he'd given you a few bob back, which you could have used to come here so I could sort it, maybe in just half an hour, without changing any components..

I would guess the same, in that he is probably more used to King... But after repeated attempts at sorting it out, still begs the question why he hasn't learned how to set the LPGTech system up properly. If you understand how systems work at roots level, it isn't rocket science to apply those concepts to any system.

Where I've heard about installers like this, I've always assumed they don't really understand LPG at roots level and this raises other concerns about their installs - Even with apparent good results the system may not be performing quite as it should, the mixture may be wrong at high engine loads (not good for the engine), or at combinations of high load and high rpm, poor choice of injector nozzle size and gas pressure can mean mixture fluctuates more than it should while cruising, slightly less economy, slightly less smooth, problems may become apparent in winter when gas temp is colder, etc.

Could suggest things to check if he has the laptop connected to the LPG system and/or a live data scanner connected to the vehcile OBD port but that's probably getting a bit too involved! Just try a bit of mixed driving, try kickdown from low speeds keeping your foot down as it goes through the gears to make sure it pulls properly and smoothly, and that it changes between fuels smoothly. Watch the LPG switch when your foot is down, the gas light should stay on steady (not flash, not beep), as that would mean it had switched back to petrol due to too low gas pressure or injectors full open (poor choice of reducer / incorrect nozzle size). You shouldn't reach a certain rpm and suddenly feel a bit more power come in, as that could mean he set the system to switch back to petrol when you put your foot down (not necessary if appropriate parts are fitted and setup properly). At no time should the engine warning light come on (try a few engine switch off and restarts) and you shouldn't be able to cause the engine to run unusually no matter how you drive it. Most people tend to give vehicles a bit of stick during test driving - you need to do that, but also do some light throttle driving and leave it idling both in park and in drive for a while... Systems are calibrated at many points, just because it works OK when giving it some stick doesn't mean it is working properly under lighter loads. Also drive it at a moderate speed then lift completely off the throttle and brake to a stop... it shouldn't cut out!

Might be an idea to get another pro to check the calibration sometime but that would be more expense for you - and there's no telling if the next bloke will do or know any better.

Simon

[Chryslerjohn]

I will definitely be testing it as you have suggested once I get it back. Also he is a UKLPG approved installer and I got his details from the register of UKLPG approved installers, but I haven't had a certificate or anything nor has he put my car on the register. My insurance company need to be notified but when I asked the insurers they said that it would need to be fitted by a UKLPG approved installer and be on the register. When should I be getting this certificate? Plus what size tanks can you fit on a GV, he has put me a 61l tank which got me 103 miles on the 1 time I actually drove it from full to empty. I intend to keep this car for a very long time so will definitely invest the money on getting it checked, would be looking to bring it over to you to have it checked because you seem extremely knowledgeable and experienced so I will give you a ring once I have it back!

[LPGC]

UKLPG installers generally register vehicles on UKLPG's database very soon after completing the conversion - it is surprising your vehicle isn't on the database yet. Anyone can check if any vehicle is on that database here http://www.drivelpg.co.uk/advice-and-in ... -register/

UKLPG members don't necessarily issue a paper certificate, DVLA won't check UKLPGs database to see if your car is registered (even if you tell them it is registered on the database)... If you want your logbook to reflect petrol/LPG fuel type (and you should inform DVLA anyway) you need to send proof of conversion (by a pro, not necessarily by a UKLPG member) to DVLA. You may be able to use your receipt for that purpose.

In the past I have made my thoughts about UKLPG clear on this forum.. Being a UKLPG member in no way means the installer is good at the job, only that they have converted one vehicle that has been inspected and found to comply with the simple safety criteria (which doesn't necessarily mean it works properly on LPG). Meanwhile, many installers who are not members of UKLPG, like myself, can register any vehicle on UKLPG's database as simply as making a phone call to any of a list of UKLPG members and paying one of them to do the registration without even seeing the vehicle. Some would say this is fraud, but nevertheless there is little chance of getting caught and, even if caught, breaking what amounts to club rules is hardly illegal.
'Registration' means being on UKLPG's database. Not all insurers require vehicles to be registered on UKLPGs database, a minority do, this isn't a government setup database it is a database kept by UKLPG the trade body, there is nothing in law to say any LPG vehicle ever needs to have anything to do with UKLPG or any of their members. If you get DVLA to recognise your vehicle is converted to LPG (log book fuel type change) and tell your insurer, perhaps they won't be concerned about it being on the database anyway...

The design of Grand Voyagers doesn't lend well to fitting a decent sized tank for the size of the vehicle, not externally anyway. Where is your tank fitted (underneath at the back, underneath in the middle or inside)? Mine is underneath at the back, 72L so actually holds 60L. A 61L tank should fill to near 49L which is only around 11 gallons.. GV's are hardly great on fuel but you should get more than 10mpg out of it! Mine will do 22mpg on a steady motorway cruise on LPG, about 17mpg mixed, a bit less on back roads and in town. 11Mpg towing the caravan 7 up with loads of gear at 65mph. Your model is supposedly a bit more economical than my older model.

Simon

[Tinleytech]

Hi,
Just for reference, as I'm sure most people know, King is made by AEB who are the market leading LPG electronics producers in Italy, they also produce electronics for many other of the large Italian kit producers.
The quality and function of their products, in particular the multipoint ECU's, is excellent (we would say second to none but are biased).
Despite some repeated but unsubtantiated claims from a regular contributor on this forum, they work very well with 5, 6 or 8 cylinder vehicles just as they were designed to do.
We have direct links with the technical departments of the bigger Italian manufacturers including AEB, should anyone need any accurate technical comment.

[colin33]

I fitted a King based system on my V6 Vectra. I'm a complete novice, but the system is now in it's 4th year and has never given any issues. I'm getting 21mpg on lpg, and mainly drive short distances fairly fast! I've just started on converting my V6 Mazda Bongo, and hoping that I will get equally good results using an identical King based set-up (thanks Tinleytech)
As for the UKLPG, I agree with Simon. I notified the DVLA but wasn't asked for any certification, and my car is not registered on UKLPG. The only 'proof' of conversion I sent DVLA was the MOT emissions report. My current insurers were notified of the 'lpg conversion' but haven't asked for any certification. I would actually like to get it certified, but have yet to find someone to do it for what I would regard a 'reasonable sum' ! Anyone here up for the job?

[classicswede]

How did you get on with the swap to king?

I have not used a AEB (King) ECU on a 6 cylinder engine for a while now as there wer to many problems with them on 6 cylinder engines mainly with reading RPM. The issues can be improved by adjustments in the software but not fully cured. AEB might have resolved this now with Hardware/Firmware or software changes. i suspect the issue was hardware. At the moment I have lost confidence in AEB due to these issues. Would be interesting to hear what AEB has done to resolve the problems.

Like Simon I have always found the GV a simple car to convert and they will often run ok even badly out of tune and with injectors way to far up the manifold. It does make you question if this is the first time teh installer has used the LPG tech system? I have never tried one mostly because I dont like the look of the software, I am told it does work well

[LPGC]

would say second to none but are biased.
Despite some repeated but unsubtantiated claims from a regular contributor on this forum, they work very well with 5, 6 or 8 cylinder vehicles just as they were designed to do.
We have direct links with the technical departments of the bigger Italian manufacturers including AEB, should anyone need any accurate technical comment.

I'm not biased, I did say I still generally prefer AEB systems for 8 cyl applications, also said King is AEB. No wish to get into a public argument with the best supplier, nuff said...

I'm a complete novice

I'm not, Colin, and neither is Dai...

How did you get on with the swap to king?

John brought the GV to me today. The swap to King was never done - but the installer told John it had been done!!! Things I noticed were both rails mounted at the front of the engine with long pipe runs to some cylinders and spuds fitted a bit far up the manifold (on some cylinders...). The car drove fine, though trims went -13% at medium high loads, +5% at low loads, + a bit higher around 4.5ms (would be without the necessary peak on the map eh!). The rails were set as Dragon in software but are actually Hana. The control algorithm was set to the default 'tech' mode. The Arctic reducer set at 1.3bar was sufficient for this engine, nozzle size seeming correct for this pressure. But too rich flat out.

I didn't make any adjustments today at all - was running OK despite any of the negatives above and if I had made adjustments that could have meant blame could have been attributed to me, at least by the installer. When John got home he restarted the engine after an hour or so, the Mil light came on and engine cut out when it did. I reckon the code will be 'bank1 too rich'.. John is bringing the car back on Friday, I will re-arrange injector to spud piping and then re-calibrate the system properly, in standard mode, while he's here.

Seems like the installer is a bit dodgy and cheeky.. Each time John took the car back for the installer to try to sort it, the installer charged £20 for the LPG he supposedly used trying to put it right (i.e. trying to correct his own mistakes)! During which, unknown to the installer, John's missus' phone was in the car with a tracking program running. This, and other pointers (all according to John and missus) seem to show the car was used for pub runs, apparently.. And also show the car wasn't at the installer's premises during the final session which made it run a lot better - Phone program apparently seemed to show GV was at the LPGTech system suppliers.. So it would seem the supplier had a go at calibrating the system last time, not the installer. John maintains the installer reckons a King system is now fitted... But the system is, most definitely, still LPGTech... You couldn't make this sort of stuff up eh!

Simon

[Tinleytech]

Dai - not sure what problems you have had with the rpm , we have never had a problem with this, if the rev display is at all incorrect we just advise connecting the brown wire.
If you have a particular problem, just let us know and we will ask the AEB technical man in Italy.

[colin33]

I'm a complete novice

I'm not, Colin, and neither is Dai...

I never suggested you were Simon, not sure what your point is here?
I was simply saying that despite being a novice, the King system I fitted to my car seems to run fine with no issues despite it being 6 cylinder. Maybe, as has now been suggested, the King ECU has been updated to work ok with 6 cylinder engines?

[classicswede]

Dai - not sure what problems you have had with the rpm , we have never had a problem with this, if the rev display is at all incorrect we just advise connecting the brown wire.
If you have a particular problem, just let us know and we will ask the AEB technical man in Italy.

I will do. Had a few with issues mostly RPM related. Will give you some more details on teh problem.

On another note having tried the AEB injectors twice I am very pleased with how well they work and once I am rid of all the other injectors I have in stock I will likely switch to AEB only injectors